| --- nirik has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Meeting rules at http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines -- Init process | ||
| nirik | FESCo meeting ping -- bpepple, dgilmore, dwmw2, jwb, notting, nirik, sharkcz, jds2001, j-rod | |
|---|---|---|
| nirik | Hi everybody; who's around? | |
| * bpepple is here. | ||
| * jds2001 here for a few minutes | ||
| dwmw2 | fish | |
| jds2001 | well 30 minutes, then i have a call to get on and will be inattentive but maybe looking :) | |
| * sharkcz is here | ||
| nirik | jds2001: ticket 136 is done right, so we have no FPC stuff to review this time? | |
| jds2001 | right | |
| did i not close it? | ||
| nirik | seems to be open still. | |
| * dgilmore is here | ||
| jds2001 | fail. | |
| --- nirik has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Meeting rules at http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines -- Sponsor Nominations | ||
| nirik | ok, shall we get started with sponsor nominations? | |
| nirik | .fesco 135 | |
| zodbot | nirik: #135 (Sponsorship nomination: mmahut) - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/135 | |
| jds2001 | +1 | |
| bpepple | +1 here also. | |
| sharkcz | +1 | |
| bpepple | dwmw2, nirik: ? | |
| nirik | +1 here as well. I think he's improved a lot since he started and done a lot of reviews now. | |
| dwmw2 | +1 | |
| nirik | ok, so thats +5 so they are approved. | |
| nirik | .fesco 137 | |
| zodbot | nirik: #137 (Sponsorship Request - s4504kr) - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/137 | |
| bpepple | +1. I looked at a bunch of reviews last night, and didn't see anything that caused me concern about making him a sponsor. | |
| nirik | Jochen hasn't seemed all that active of late with reviews... but perhaps getting him to sponsor people would make him more active. | |
| so, +1 here. (all the reviews I saw were ok as well) | ||
| tibbs | Didn't he ask for sponsorship a couple of years ago? | |
| bpepple | tibbs: possibly. | |
| jds2001 | he asked for provenpackager when we reseeded and was approved | |
| sharkcz | +1, IIRC we did mutually few reviews and have no problems | |
| jds2001 | +1 | |
| dwmw2: ? | ||
| nirik | dgilmore / dwmw2 ? | |
| dwmw2 | trying to have an opinion :) | |
| +1 | ||
| nirik | so thats +5, they are approved. | |
| nirik | .fesco 138 | |
| dgilmore | +1 | |
| zodbot | nirik: #138 (Sponsorship request: peter) - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/138 | |
| nirik | +1 to peter here. | |
| sharkcz | +1 here also | |
| bpepple | +1 | |
| dwmw2 | +1 | |
| jds2001 | +1 here too | |
| nirik | dgilmore: ? | |
| jds2001 | we have five :) | |
| nirik | yeah, +5 so this request is approved. | |
| nirik | .fesco 139 | |
| zodbot | nirik: #139 (Sponsorship request: jussilehtola) - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/139 | |
| * nirik has an issue with the reasoning on this one. | ||
| nirik looks for what he was remembering. | ||
| jds2001 | this wasnt a self-nomination either. | |
| * dwmw2 doesn't see a problem, but waits for nirik | ||
| * jds2001 also doesn't see an issue. | ||
| nirik | perhaps it was someone else. They said they wanted to have provenpackager to make changes for merge reviews. | |
| bpepple | +1 to jussilehtola. | |
| jds2001 | oh, yeah that was someone else | |
| +1 | ||
| sharkcz | +1 | |
| nirik | yeah, I am crazy. Sorry. | |
| jds2001 | nirik: we alreay knew that :) | |
| * nirik nods. ;) | ||
| dwmw2 | +1 | |
| dgilmore | sorry i just had a ups crap itself | |
| dwmw2 | well, jissilehtola's nomination _does_ mention merge reviews | |
| * nirik is looking... have they only done 20 reviews? one of those links is not right. | ||
| jds2001 | i see 60 | |
| nirik | ah, much better. | |
| jds2001 | i think one is his submissions | |
| i think i forwarded this from my cell | ||
| so didnt actually look at the links prior to forwarding/insert my own. | ||
| nirik | yes, it was them... let me link to the email. | |
| https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg01230.html | ||
| I think that if a maintainer on a merge review says: ok, all your stuff is minor and looks fine to me, but I am busy, can you commit build it. Thats great. | ||
| I don't think we should have reviewers fix packages for merge reviews unless they are wanting to maintain them moving forward. | ||
| or the maintainer wants them too and understands the changes. | ||
| dwmw2 | nirik: if a maintainer says nothing, I think it's fine for a competent (proven) packager to just go fix the thing too | |
| mharris | I've got bucketloads of time to throw around quite often and have been thinking of diving back into things lately. I'd be willing to help dive through the backlog of rpm packages needing review/packaging/fixing/etc. | |
| abadger1999 | Maybe FESCo should have a policy of "no reply to merge review; announce on fedora-devel; wait 1 week" | |
| nirik | then we don't really have a maintainer do we? shouldn't we rather start non responsive maintainer on it? | |
| mharris | Any idea what the current backlog tally is? | |
| dwmw2 | abadger1999: I think we should have a policy of not having too many policies | |
| nirik | mharris: that would be excellent. It's big... | |
| abadger1999 | mharris: You would be a hero. Right up there with Saint tibbs :-) | |
| jds2001 | mharris: according to that mail ~400 | |
| abadger1999 | dwmw2: Let me see, would that be policy number 542 or 543? | |
| dwmw2 | grant provenpackager to jussi, with a comment "please don't piss people off" | |
| abadger1999 | :-) | |
| dwmw2 | no need for a policy :) | |
| mharris | Well, I've been wanting to start contributing packages again, and I figured I'd submit them into the pile that is already there to wait forever like everyone else so... why not tackle the problem from the other end. :) | |
| tibbs | Merge reviews are somewhat special, though. | |
| mharris | jds2001: which mail? I'm not on many lists currently, but will sign up. | |
| tibbs | Remember that currently many of the maintainers aren't even CC'd on the review tickets, so they won't see any responses. | |
| nirik | dwmw2: well, I would be ok with voicing my concerns to them. That email worries me tho that they would change something without any input from the maintainer. | |
| dwmw2 | merge reviews are only "special" because nobody actually cares about them | |
| jds2001 | mharris: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg01230.html | |
| that's the merge review backlog | ||
| dwmw2 | when reviews are a hoop to jump through to get your packages accepted, people care (and they have a good effect on quality) | |
| tibbs | Some folks do care, once they actually start getting the bugzilla messages. | |
| jds2001 | the review backlog is larger, but part of it is those 452 | |
| dwmw2 | but nobody _cares_ about either doing merge reviews, or fixing stuff that's highlighted. | |
| sharkcz | tibbs: true, the ownership of the former core packages changes during the time in RH | |
| dwmw2 | mostly, with a few conscientious exceptions | |
| I definitely don't want to _discourage_ those exceptions by withholding provenpackager status :) | ||
| jds2001 | so this is a sponsorship request too, not just provenpackager. | |
| * nirik nods. | ||
| jds2001 | just wanted to make sure ppl were aware :) | |
| mharris | jds2001: Thanks, I'll get up to scratch on that. I need to make a new account on the system as well, it's been a while... ;) | |
| abadger1999 | mharris: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Package_Review | |
| nirik | I guess it might be good to note to anyone doing merge reviews a few things: 1) make sure the current maintainer gets cced. 2) make sure you check against the current rawhide package. | |
| nirik | mharris: feel free to catch me sometime to review/sponsor you back into the right groups. | |
| mharris | ok | |
| abadger1999: thanks | ||
| nirik | anyhow, I guess we are drifting here... so where do we stand? | |
| dwmw2 | nirik: that makes sense. Those are in the policy on touching other people's packages anyway, aren't they? | |
| did we finish voting on this request? | ||
| bpepple | I think we were at 4 votes for his request. | |
| nirik | dwmw2: sure, but that email makes me concered that they think making changes for a merge review is all ok. I guess as long as they agree to only make minor changes or with the maintainers approval I am ok with it. | |
| dwmw2 | we can convey that message with the 'approval granted' notice. | |
| nirik | I will +1 this request, and can reply to their devel post with my concerns. | |
| dwmw2 | or your concerns could be phrased as FESCo's concerns, in the 'official' response, if you prefer. | |
| dwmw2 | I don't think anyone seriously disagrees. | |
| nirik | either way or both would be fine with me. | |
| so thats +5, so they are approved. | ||
| nirik | .fesco 140 | |
| zodbot | nirik: #140 (Please make me a member of 'provenpackagers') - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/140 | |
| jds2001 | oops | |
| this is lennart | ||
| bpepple | +1 to lennart being proven packager. | |
| * jds2001 didnt modify the subject :( | ||
| jds2001 | +1 | |
| sharkcz | +1 | |
| dwmw2 | +1 | |
| nirik | +1 (allowing him to assist with other desktop packages sound issues sounds like a good idea to me) | |
| thats +5, so we have approved this request. | ||
| ok, on to the fun pulseaudio discussion. | ||
| nirik | .fesco 141 | |
| zodbot | nirik: #141 (PulseAudio regression handling) - FESCo - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/141 | |
| nirik | dwmw2: care to lead this discussion/voice your concerns? | |
| dwmw2 | we've broken a bunch of cases which used to work | |
| we respond by calling them 'weird' | ||
| I don't think that's good enough. | ||
| mezcalero | btw, may i say something too? | |
| dwmw2 | to be clear: I'm _not_ complaining about bugs and unreliability. That sucked for F-10 but I think we have a better handle on it for F-11 | |
| they've been doing a good job of improving that | ||
| bpepple | mezcalero: definitely. | |
| dwmw2 | mezcalero: go ahead | |
| mezcalero | oops, sorry doing two things at the same time | |
| "a bunch of cases" | ||
| is not exactly true | ||
| mezcalero | afaics there are two things | |
| 1) the thing about the input source selection | ||
| there is a bug open about this | ||
| situation is not that great | ||
| but i don't think a real problem | ||
| i never closed that issue btw | ||
| nirik | in this case we need to fix each of the broken alsa drivers? | |
| mezcalero | some folks an i decided to fix that in f12 and add a comment in the release notes | |
| which afaik has happened | ||
| no, this is about the alsa apis being broken | ||
| but i will work around this for f12 | ||
| just read the bug report | ||
| lemme find it | ||
| nirik | ok, so it's an alsalib issue? | |
| mezcalero | https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=491372 | |
| buggbot | Bug 491372: medium, high, ---, lpoetter, NEW, Doesn't handle switching inputs on one device | |
| nirik | picking the wrong {PCM|MASTER|whatever} | |
| mezcalero | no, it's not about that | |
| dwmw2 | that's a separate issue | |
| mezcalero | read that bug report | |
| then issue 2) goes like this: | ||
| * nirik reads | ||
| dwmw2 | the input-selection thing is still open, so that's fine. | |
| it's kind of suboptimal that we introduce a regression that has to wait so long for a fix, but at least we're working on it. | ||
| mezcalero | dwmw2 wants to use the line-in of his sound card in a way i think is out of scope for pa | |
| and that's what i said, and closed the bug | ||
| referring him to use the low-level alsa mixer | ||
| dwmw2 | I think someone else was the line-in one | |
| ixs | the line in was wwoods IIRC | |
| dwmw2 | I just wanted to be able to turn my speakers on and off | |
| mezcalero | everyones first reaction was that this is quite an exotic use of a sound card | |
| and pa focusses to make the common case easy | ||
| and the uncommon cases can still be supported too | ||
| but outside of pa | ||
| i.e. by dropping to alsamixer | ||
| dwmw2 insists that his usage is not niche | ||
| and to use alsamixer for this is too much to ask for | ||
| oh, there was that third thing | ||
| dwmw2 | I insist that there are a _lot_ of use cases outside the core 'play flash sounds and video' which aren't supported by the PA | |
| nirik | the issue is that many people have no idea alsamixer exists. | |
| abadger1999 | if this is the monitor line-in one, I recall at least one poster saying this wasn't that exotic a use case with an example. | |
| dwmw2 | including just 'maximise the usable volume from what's playing right now', even. | |
| mezcalero | nirik: sure, but those people don't want to use a mixer in this weird way | |
| dwmw2 | I can't tell me father to use alsamixer. | |
| mharris | dwmw2: +1 | |
| dwmw2 | If there was an 'advanced...' button in the new gnome-volume-control which gave me the old settings, that might work. Or if there was a way to get back to the controls we had in F-10. | |
| mezcalero | using the sound card like this is only done by people who actually know that it can be done. it's a weird way to use a sound card | |
| and since they are pros, they can just use alsamixer or another tool | ||
| jwb | that's the dumbest argument i have ever heard | |
| mezcalero | love you too | |
| dwmw2 | My father has recently taken up folk music and morris dancing | |
| dgilmore | mezcalero: when i do video calls to my mum i need to ssh to her box and fix up the volume settings | |
| abadger1999 | mezcalero: Uhm... the poster was saying it's common to hook an mp3 player up to a computer and then have the sound go to the computer's speakers. Which would be a very end-user'ish thing to do. | |
| jwb | seeing that you have a 'line-in' jack on your sound card and expecting it to work does not make you an expert | |
| dwmw2 | he's starting to play an instrument, and even record stuff. | |
| mezcalero | abadger1999: yes, i doubt this is so common | |
| dwmw2 | He knows that he can feed audio into a device through its 'line in' socket. | |
| mezcalero | abadger1999: it's a niceh usage, out of pa's focus | |
| dwmw2 | and hooks up things like tape recorders. | |
| mezcalero | abadger1999: if you want to do it, do it with raw alsa | |
| dwmw2 | and he's a complete muppet when it comes to computers | |
| I'm happy with "out of PA's focus" as an answer. | ||
| abadger1999 | To hook an mp3 player up to your computer and play sounds? | |
| dwmw2 | But not with "out of Fedora's focus" | |
| mezcalero | pa doesn't do pro audio stuff | |
| we don't do hdr | ||
| we don't do music production | ||
| abadger1999 | That is so end-user-ish I don't know what to say. | |
| mezcalero | if you want input feedback monitoring, then don't use pa | |
| dwmw2 | ok, fine. | |
| that's the answer. | ||
| how do we do that in Fedora? | ||
| mharris | One thing I find disconcerting, is how projects seem to get together a small handful of developers in a room, make up ficticious end users, then decide how those people probably use a computer and design to that. There is no actual real world studies done on how real people use the computer. | |
| dwmw2 | I need my father to "don't use pa", as instructred | |
| ixs | They way I see it, following the discussion: PA is a nice audio solution for a very specific use case. But is it the right way to make this specific use case the default? Or should it be user-installable as e.g. jack, which I consider to be built for pro-audio? | |
| bpepple | abadger1999: really? I'm sorta with mezcalero that it's not that common of a scenario. | |
| drago01 | mezcalero: its not really about PA (people do not care what is happening in the background) but they complain about the default UI | |
| mharris | Just a long series of (false) assumptions about how people use the computer based on random guesswork. | |
| dwmw2 | ixs: it's Ok for it to be the default, I think. But not to the exclusion of all other (non-text-mode) possibilities | |
| ixs | mharris: +1 | |
| drago01 | mezcalero: so they not asking for support in PA but in gnome-volume-control | |
| dwmw2 | one of the problems is that getting things "right" involves having an accurate database of how various bizarre hardware works | |
| and that database can _never_ be perfect. | ||
| mezcalero | people are asking us, to include support for all kinds of niche usages of sound cards into the volume control UIs | |
| and i just don't think that makes any sense | ||
| dwmw2 | even for the 'common' case you're often going to find that the user needs to tweak stuff | |
| nirik | is there any page/description of exactly what pulseaudios "focus" is? and use cases that are supported/not supported? | |
| dgilmore | bpepple: i think its a pretty common use case | |
| mharris | Now, if the GNOME project could back up a number of these decisions by citing actual real world studies on real human beings, that would be something else. | |
| mezcalero | for those niche and pro audio uses, don't use g-v-c | |
| mharris | And not 10 people picked at random. Maybe 1000 or 10000. | |
| mezcalero | the same as you wouldn't use it for audio production, where you'd use JACK | |
| dwmw2 | In Fedora 10 there was a way for users to do all these things, and it was in gnome-volume-control. | |
| mezcalero | so, it's just a matter of deciding whether those exotic uses are important enough to have them in g-v-c, or not | |
| dwmw2 | g-v-c was a mess, at times, and could do with hiding some of the controls -- but I thought it _did_ that, and you had to manually go into the preferences and make the weird ones visible? | |
| mezcalero | and i say not, they are not | |
| mharris | dwmw2: maybe pressing CTRL-L? ;) | |
| abadger1999 | bpepple: How do you play sounds from your mp3 player for a roomful of people? Dedicated speakers? Stereo sysem? TV? | |
| dwmw2 | and we made it simpler in F-11, which is great | |
| f13 | dwmw2: the problem was that for some people, the 'weird' ones were the ones that needed to be frobbed. | |
| dwmw2 | but in doing so, we have _broken_ a number of use cases. We need to fix those. Give users _some_ way, graphically, of still tweaking the same settings. | |
| bpepple | abadger1999: stereo. I don't usually keep a computer with decent speakers in any of my main room. | |
| abadger1999 | Maybe it depends on budget. Some people have a computer because it can help do work but not the things that are "entertainment". | |
| dwmw2 | f13: except in F-10 it _wasn't_ a huge problem, because you could still enable those ones and frob them to your heart's content. | |
| mezcalero | the thing is, who decides which feature should be cluttering the UI and which shouldn't. Right now Bastien and Jon and I decided that none of the issues raised should be exposed. | |
| dwmw2 | we hid them by _default_ only, and didn't actually prevent you from getting at them at all. | |
| f13 | yeah, it was a bit of check every box and twiddle sliders until something happened | |
| ixs | I think one of the problems is the definition of weird. Lennart considers line-in and cd audio weird and doesn't want to support these as it's outside the PA scope. I believe however, that our users are using their systems that way. | |
| so for them, fedora is broken. | ||
| mharris | dwmw2: perhaps we could fire up winvol.exe in wine to get the job done... ;) | |
| mezcalero | and i am unwilling to change that and refer folks to alsamixer | |
| abadger1999 | bpepple: <nod>. But the computer speakers are better than earphones? So in a college dorm room, for instance, it would make sense? | |
| ixs | offering them to install additional software or use another mixer from the menu doesn't work. | |
| mezcalero | cd audio? | |
| ixs | they will be clicking the mixer in the taskbar. | |
| mezcalero: cdda audio input | ||
| mezcalero | afaik the gnome cdplayer grabs audio cds digitally | |
| ixs | mezcalero: analog. | |
| bpepple | abadger1999: possibly, but most of the college students I know have a dedicated speaker system for their ipods. | |
| mezcalero | so, if you really thinkg that the analog cd audio path matters then please bring that up with gnome-media first | |
| f13 | I used line in to play my ipod for a long time | |
| ixs | mezcalero: it does? My understanding was always that it's using the analog in as the volume can be changed by the CD-In slider. | |
| nirik | I think we are going to have a lot of people mad unless there is a clear list of what pulseaudios focus is/use cases are. | |
| f13 | even worse now that things like iphones and ipod touches can't be seen by audio players to play direct | |
| dwmw2 | If we weren't so late in the process, I'd be suggesting that we follow the contingency plan for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/VolumeControl | |
| mharris | Another major problem that I see on the Linux desktop, is that there are a number of differing usage case groups for many different things, but no single entity wants to try to create a single solution that attempts to solve all the major issues for all of the major groups. | |
| mezcalero | so again, these are all exotic uses. I am not barring anyone to make use of that. But Jon, Bastien and I just don't think it should be g-v-c | |
| nirik | I also think pointing people to alsamixer is failure. | |
| dwmw2 | I think we should have a button in the new volume control which runs the old one. | |
| mharris | Instead, each group is considered a niche, and writes their own competing solution to the same problem with a focus on the features that matter most to their niche. | |
| f13 | I don't think I agree with "exotic" for plugging an audio producing device into line in | |
| dwmw2 | we _cannot_ get it right for all cases, and we have to recognise that fact. | |
| mharris | So we have 10 different solutions to the same problem. Every solution does one thing and does it well, but fails at the other 10 things. | |
| mezcalero | f13: when youw ant to record from it makes sense | |
| dwmw2 | we also need to make sure that the PA volume handling isn't constantly trampling on the manual ALSA settings. | |
| mezcalero | but a sound card is a pretty bad mixer for ananlog sources | |
| mharris | esd/arts/alsa/pulse/nas/mas/.... | |
| f13 | no, just playing it | |
| mharris | And often switching from one solution to another *requires* one be somewhat of an expert even if they are not, but need the functionality. -> FAIL | |
| nirik | so, for f11, can we get some other graphical mixer available for those that have use cases outside pulseaudio? | |
| mezcalero | again, i don't think the UI should expose by default any of these exotic uses | |
| if people want to make use of it | ||
| mezcalero | they can use alsamixer or something similar | |
| and if they don't know about that | ||
| they can read the release notes | ||
| or google for it | ||
| dwmw2 | nirik: I think that would be very useful, yes. Run the old g-v-c if the user presses an 'advanced...' button in the new one, or something. | |
| nirik | what is in the release notes on this? | |
| mezcalero | and will certainly find something that explains how to use alsamixer | |
| or a similar tool | ||
| dwmw2 | we _removed_ the best 'similar tool' | |
| f13 | I have my speakers plugged in, so that I hear pidgin or irc beeps, but I also want to play music from my device, my speakers don't have multiple inputs. | |
| this is one of the good things about pulse, I can get all those sounds to play at once | ||
| dwmw2 | and made it useless for these peopel | |
| f13 | before if I was listening to music, pidgin sounds would queue up | |
| mezcalero: bad mixer or not, it can do it, and doing so I don't think is as exotic as you think i tis. | ||
| nirik | mezcalero: can you write up a page on what use cases pulse handles? so we can tell people with other cases that they need to go to another mixer? | |
| dwmw2 | let's put it back, and make it possible to run it without having to jmp through hoops (but I'm still OK with not by default) | |
| mezcalero | f13: then we disgree | |
| mclasen | dwmw2: feel free to maintain it | |
| upstream too | ||
| mezcalero | nirik: dunno, i'd rather see a list of use-cases it doesn't handle, which we then can identify as "matters" and "doesn't matter" | |
| nirik | mezcalero: well, if you don't have such a document, you will get a continual flow of bugs saying that it's broken, and getting mad if you just close them. | |
| at least you can point them all at such a document. | ||
| dwmw2 | Proposal: FESCo is unhappy with the results of https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/VolumeControl and is very tempted to follow the contingency plan and revert it. Before doing that, we could like to ask the maintainers to pay more attention to the "exotic" use cases which they are intentionally disenfranchising: | |
| mezcalero | no, i am not spending my time on making weird things work, sorry | |
| this is ridicululous | ||
| ixs | dwmw2: that would prevent PA beeing seen as a regression? | |
| bpepple | -1 to proposal. | |
| nirik | -1 here as well. | |
| dwmw2 | ixs: I think so, yes. | |
| drago01 | ixs: its not about pa but the mixer UI ... | |
| leigh123linux | -1 | |
| ixs | drago01: is it such a big difference to the end user? | |
| dgilmore | +1 | |
| dwmw2 | bpepple, nirik, leigh123linux: would you care to say why? Do you think it's just badly phrased proposal, or do you disagree that we should care about such use cases, etc? | |
| drago01 | ixs: no but claiming that pa stops you from doing this things is just wrong | |
| jwb | we seem to have a simple case of an upstream project that refuses to consider outside input on what is important | |
| what would we normally do in taht case? | ||
| dwmw2 | jwb: we wouldn't bet the farm on that project. We'd make it possibly to bypass that project for the cases where it isn't useful | |
| mezcalero | what about the following proposal: if anybody really wants to see the old g-v-c available he is free to maintain that in fedora | |
| dwmw2 | if it doesn't claim to be all things to all users, we wouldn't restrict our users to _only_ that project. | |
| nirik | dwmw2: well, I think it's only likely to make mezcalero mad. We can't force people to work on things that they don't want to. I think we need to all relax and try and figure out more how we can compromise. | |
| ixs | jwb: the general case is to go look for another software stack doing the same thing. However, PA is not just "another upstream project" | |
| dwmw2 | which is what we've done | |
| mezcalero | dwmw2: if you want to see the old g-v-c back in fedora, then MAINTAIN IT | |
| jwb | mezcalero, would you add the 'advanced' button that dwmw2 suggested that simply started the old g-v-c? | |
| mezcalero | don't try to get other people to do this for you by some bureaucratic process | |
| mclasen | jwb: thats not his call | |
| mezcalero | jwb: that's not my decision | |
| jwb | who's is it? | |
| bpepple | My objections to the proposal is due to how late in the release this decision is being made. The volume control feature has been written about (feature page and on various planets ) and discussed for awhile now, and objections should have been made a lot earlier in the process. | |
| mclasen | and no, I don't think we would add that button | |
| mezcalero | jwb: ask bastien, and ask jon | |
| * nirik would maintain it if it would help, but I don't use gnome, so I don't think I would be the best maintainer. | ||
| mezcalero | jwb: a possible solution would be to add that button only if /usr/bin/old-g-v-c exists or so | |
| jwb: but i am against even that | ||
| dwmw2 | bpepple: true. That's why I said 'tempted to'. :) | |
| jwb | mclasen, can i ask why? | |
| mclasen | if you want g-v-c back, maintain it upstream, package it, put it in the menus | |
| simple, easy, just a little work to do | ||
| instead of writing flames | ||
| jwb | i'm not writing a flame. i'm asking for a button.. | |
| nirik | so all that would help tho is people would see something doesn't work, complain/file bugs/etc and get told to use 'g-v-c' instead of alsamixer? | |
| mezcalero | jwb: what's the point of the button, if you already have a menu? | |
| dwmw2 | maintaining the tool itself is doable | |
| we need it to be accessible to those people who click on the volume stuff in their panel | ||
| nirik | mezcalero: it would allow people seeing it not work for their case to easily try and go back to g-v-c. | |
| jwb | mezcalero, because people click on the little speaker applet (which is default). they don't go hunting in menus for things that are right there on the desktop | |
| mclasen | dwmw2: there is no point to make an unusable tool easily accessible | |
| ixs | mezcalero: users are used to click on the volume button in the taskbar. not look in the menu. It's probably just the users expectation. | |
| nirik | instead of posting to mailing lists, filing bugs, flaming on irc, forums, etc. | |
| mezcalero | i don't think there needs to be easy access to weird exotic features | |
| if there is a menu entry for that, that's good enough | ||
| dwmw2 | we disagree on the exoticness of certain features | |
| that is 'exotic' for PA and quite rightly unsupported, | ||
| is a perfectly reasonable use case for Fedora | ||
| dwmw2 | s/that/what/ | |
| jwb | mezcalero, pardon me asking, but what is your real name? i don't recognize your nick and whois isn't helping me | |
| abadger1999 | jwb: mezcalero == lennart | |
| jwb | ah, thank you | |
| mezcalero | i mean, come on, this whole disccussion is so pointless. we are having a discussion here in FESCO about where to put a button or not put it at all | |
| dwmw2 | I'll maintain g-v-c if I really must, but I want it people like my father to be able to _find_ it, which means being able to run it from the right-click menu of the thing in the panel, or an 'Advanced...' button in the PA volume control app | |
| mezcalero | dwmw2: then make it replace the real g-v-c | |
| dwmw2: that's an issue of your packaging | ||
| dwmw2 | that's just silly. | |
| jwb | it's also prohibited | |
| unless it uses alternatives | ||
| mezcalero | jwb: alternatvies seems to be an awesome use for this | |
| jwb | possibly | |
| dwmw2 | not really | |
| because you want both installed | ||
| jwb | arguing over a button isn't what we're doing though | |
| dwmw2 | you want to let PA do its thing, but fall back to fixing the things it gets wrong, or can't handle | |
| mclasen | no, I disagree with alternatives for this too | |
| mezcalero | we are discussing packaging issues | |
| mclasen | and I don't really think fesco wants to start mandating where we put buttons | |
| mezcalero | packaging issues of a package i don't really care about | |
| dwmw2 | right | |
| bpepple | mclasen: definitely. | |
| abadger1999 | mclasen: +1 | |
| jwb | it was a request at a compromise | |
| dwmw2 | FESCo is interested in the second half of my above sentence: the 'but fall back to fixing the things it gets wrong'. | |
| jwb | damn, people... | |
| dwmw2 | At least, I hope so ;) | |
| nirik | the problem is that in f11 some unknown % of fedora users use cases will not work. I think the idea here is that we could try and make something for this release so those folks could easily get their use cases working again. | |
| dwmw2 | and the best answer to that seems to be that we make access to the underlying ALSA mixer controls work again, from the GUI. | |
| ixs | but I think fesco is taking the wrong perspective here. Fesco#s job is not to mandate the design or the scope of PA but to consider impact of the Fedora Release. | |
| mezcalero | dwmw2: it doesn't get things 'wrong' that much. if it did file a bug. some things are out of focus, that's all | |
| f13 | honestly, somebody packaging up the full mixer and getting it installed by default too is probably enough | |
| mclasen | nirik: there is always an unknown % of things that don't work. I don't see the point in that argument at all | |
| f13 | relnotes can mention that a full mixer is available in the menus | |
| drago01 | nirik: slip the release by 5 years | |
| f13 | it's a bit easier than telling people to use alsamixer | |
| mezcalero | i am against installing that by default | |
| there is no reason to | ||
| if you want exotic setups, then install the pkg | ||
| mclasen | f13: don't look for us to do that | |
| mezcalero | no need to clutter the menus with that | |
| dwmw2 | f13: That's a start, but it makes a lot more sense to add a button to the lobotomised volume control, which lets you run the advanced one | |
| nirik | sure, time marches on and all. The reason we are talking about it is that many people find it to be a concern for the next release. | |
| f13 | mclasen: I'm not | |
| mclasen | f13: and I don't think the desktop sig will agree to install it by default | |
| in the desktop spin | ||
| dwmw2 | don't FESCo get to approve spins? | |
| f13 | *shrug* the help then becomes "yum install foo; run foo" | |
| dwmw2 | if we're playing that kind of silly game. | |
| f13 | I guess we'll see how often that has to get done to decide what to do for F12 | |
| ixs | f13: I don't think that's going to work. | |
| nirik | sure, but that gets back to flames until someone gets that suggestion... | |
| mclasen | dwmw2: don't approve it then | |
| this is silly, indeed | ||
| wwoods | we have... 3 months until F12 Alpha? is that right? | |
| f13 | if that | |
| dwmw2 | let's package the old volume control, because some people _do_ need it. | |
| f13 | f12 is a short cycle. | |
| ixs | besides, I think it's a pretty lame excuse for solving a regression to write in the release notes how to rip out a much touted feature and replace the mixer with something else. | |
| dwmw2 | Hell, I'll do that if I have to, if people _really_ want me maintaining gui code :) | |
| nirik | dwmw2: well, there is xfce4-mixer as well if you just want a mixer. | |
| f13 | ixs: it's not ripping out and replacing. | |
| dwmw2 | and add a sensible way for people to _find_ it, when the PA volume control isn't good enough. | |
| f13 | ixs: it's augmenting, in a graphical way, as opposed to alsamixer | |
| ixs | f13: if we're using alternatives that'll be the result. | |
| nirik | ixs: what is your alternate proposal? | |
| f13 | ixs: nobody is seriously considering alternatives | |
| pulling out alternatives is close to godwin's law 'round here. | ||
| dwmw2 | :) | |
| mezcalero | i think release notes plus google is good enough a way to find that obsolete version of g-v-c | |
| dwmw2 | nobody reads release notes. | |
| * nirik nods. Sad but true | ||
| mclasen | why do we write them then ? | |
| dwmw2 | I think an 'advanced' button in what we ship, or another item in the right-click menu in the panel, is a good way to find that version of g-v-c | |
| f13 | but release notes provide a useful place to point people at when they ask questions | |
| nirik | anyhow, do we want to try and accomplish anything here? or ? | |
| wwoods | since this is tied to a F11 Feature (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/VolumeControl) and certain parts of the scope are incomplete | |
| drago01 | didn't ubuntu just release with exactly this issue? are users complaining? | |
| wwoods | it's definitely within FESCo's reach to suggest compromises here | |
| ixs | nirik: honestly? I think the suggestion starting a graphical alsa mixer for "out-of-scope" cases is sensible. I do not think that putting that mixer in a menu somewhere is the right thing however as users will not expect a second mixer. An advanced button could take care of that problem but would need cooperation from upstream, which might not be likely, or result in fedora having a local patch. | |
| wwoods | for strong values of "suggest". | |
| mharris | What happens when any particular use case is only 2% of users, but there are 50 use cases that aren't handled and the cumulated "exotic cases" results in 30-50% of users being screwed? | |
| ixs | f13: is it? wow. I'm shipping packages using alternatives... whoaps. :D | |
| dwmw2 | people interact with the volume control through the thing in the panel. If the thing in the panel suddenly stops working for them, they _don't_ expect to be able to find the real tool hidden away somewhere else in the menus. | |
| that's a _really_ bad suggestion, IMHO | ||
| f13 | wwoods: what isn't complete? the feature is marked 100% | |
| mclasen | mharris: we add more advanced buttons, of course | |
| mezcalero | dwmw2: 'google' is a good remedy for folks who don't read release notes | |
| wwoods | f13: two things in scope - "PulseAudio to allow supporting features in the front-ends" and "kernel (ALSA) which should trim the number of user visible hardware channels" | |
| mclasen | wwoods: the feature never claimed that it would support any and all crazy sound setups that are possible | |
| wwoods | no, but there are definitely hints that parts of the original design (exporting certain card features in the frontend/GUI code) isn't complete | |
| which suggests that perhaps a compromise is in order until they are | ||
| * nirik thinks there is not much willingness to compromise here. | ||
| rdieter | (adam) "revive gnome-alsamixer" https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2009-April/msg02003.html | |
| abadger1999 | drago01: Yes, but it's greasy wheel syndrome.... are the complainers there really representative of the Ubuntu community? | |
| f13 | adamw: perhaps you'd like to describe your just sent proposal here? | |
| wwoods | we have a spec and the feature doesn't seem to meet it. if we want to get pedantic about it, FESCo can pull the ripcord on the feature entirely. but that doesn't really help improve the situation. | |
| adamw | f13: ok. quickly: let's resurrect gnome-alsamixer and install it by default. g-v-c wants to cover the 90% cases in a simple user-friendly way: great. at present it covers maybe 70%. we really need a graphical app available by default for the other 30%. | |
| dwmw2 | adamw: great... that means I don't have to maintain it as was being threatened :) | |
| mclasen | apps that cover 10% use cases don't need to be installed by default | |
| dwmw2 | this is the same as the old gnome-volume-control? | |
| adamw | yes, then we have 'duplication', but it's a relative situation: duplication is a lesser evil than telling thousands of people how to run alsamixer from a console. | |
| mclasen | I don't agree | |
| adamw | mclasen: sure, and in future, when g-v-c is more mature and really covers 90%, we could stop installing it by default | |
| * mharris places his hands interlocked together and holds them out to wwoods to give him a boost to reach the ripcord | ||
| dgilmore thinks we wont agree here and should move on | ||
| adamw | mclasen: but for f11, g-v-c is not going to reach that state, lennart has already says so. it doesn't let you do input switching, which means most people who ever want to record anything are boned. | |
| mezcalero | adamw: g-v-c won't cover exotic use cases, sorry | |
| jwb | dgilmore, the 'how to move on part' is the problem | |
| dwmw2 | adamw: that's half the solution. The remaining problem is that users updating from F-10 will jsut see that the thing in the panel that they use has got worse, and won't tihnk to go looking around in the application menus to find the old version of that. | |
| adamw | mezcalero: i know, i don't ever expect it to. 'exotic' use cases are fine, that's the 10% i was talking about. the issue here is that g-v-c does not *yet* cover some very common cases that it's intended to cover in future. | |
| dwmw2 | so we could _really_ do with a way to run the 'old' mixer from the panel | |
| either in the right-click menu on the applet, or an ''Advanced...' button in the new g-v-c | ||
| mclasen | add a launcher to your dads desktop | |
| ixs | mharris: wanna stand on my shoulders? | |
| adamw | dwmw2: personally i'd agree, but i'm not sure that would get enough agreement. so i'm proposing something that to my mind is very conservative that really shouldn't be that hard to agree on. | |
| wwoods | I'm pretty willing to believe that the situation will improve post-release to the point where the temporary compromise old-mixer nonsense can be removed | |
| mharris | ixs: +1 | |
| adamw | wwoods: my position would be "as soon as g-v-c can do input switching and most prominent 'the slider doesn't really control my volume' bugs are fixed, we can stop installing any alternative by default" | |
| dwmw2 | wwoods: I'm not sure, because we're being very forthrightly told that even things like playing CDs through the analogue path, and line-in, are "too weird". | |
| abadger1999 | wwoods: The one thing about that is we get a new crowd of people screaming that there's been a regression in the middle of a stable release instead of at the release boundary. | |
| dgilmore | jwb: we wont come to the desision today | |
| * mclasen is not going to take ui proposals from this forum, sorry | ||
| dwmw2 | it's _OK_ for PA to declare those cases uninteresting, but it does mean that we have to retain an alternative in Fedora | |
| nirik | dgilmore: indeed. | |
| abadger1999 | dgilmore: The clock is ticking on F11. | |
| :-( | ||
| mharris | In the olden days, writing an IRC client used to be the cool thing everyone did. Now it's writing sound subsystems that don't work. | |
| nirik | adamw's proposal sounds like a fine compromise to me | |
| dgilmore | abadger1999: i know. | |
| drago01 | adamw: "the slider doesn't really control my volume" this one is simply a bug that should be fixed not worked around by different mixers | |
| dwmw2 | Given the attitude of the people involved, and their failure to care about regressions, I'm more of the opinion now that we should revert the 'VolumeControl' feature. | |
| mezcalero | i think everyone agrees that dwmw2 may maintain the old g-v-c if he wants. what's left to decide? whether this will be installed on the desktop spin? as already mentioned this is not going to happen | |
| ixs | nirik: agreed. +1 for adamw | |
| mezcalero | so what is this discussion about still? | |
| adamw | drago01: hence the bit where i said "once it's fixed we can stop shipping any". | |
| mclasen | dwmw2: good luck | |
| jwb | wait... what is the 'desktop' spin here? | |
| wwoods | mclasen: you don't really have to take the UI suggestions, but FESCo doesn't really have to accept the feature, so it kind of behooves you all to work together | |
| jwb | the normal Gnome based one? | |
| * f13 watches things get ugly. | ||
| wwoods | I'm really pretty happy about the new volume control because I hate trying to figure out if I want to dick with PCM or Master or what | |
| dwmw2 | wwoods: for the cases where it _works_, I'm quite happy with it too | |
| but there are cases where it _doesn't_, which is the problem. | ||
| jwb | f13, i'm not trying to get ugly. i'm just trying to understand what mezcalero just said | |
| mclasen | wwoods: I really don't see much constructive happening here, sorry | |
| f13 | mclasen: what you mean is that people here don't agree with you. | |
| wwoods | but we all know there are a lot of obvious cases where it doesn't work and there's an obvious temporary compromise solution that leaves everyone happy and can be removed in 3-6 months | |
| jwb | f13, well, i agree not much constructive is happening | |
| about the only thing constructive is the adamw proposal | ||
| wwoods | but if nobody's willing to compromise, there's a simple solution for that too | |
| drago01 | adamw: no I disagree here why should a user think that a different mixer would change his volume while the default one doesn't ? | |
| jwb | my only question is why people think they can veto it getting installed by default? | |
| f13 | it'll be constructive if it gets majority fesco vote | |
| wwoods | much as I love the feature, it doesn't meet its listed spec | |
| f13 | because some of fesco don't feel that its enough. | |
| drago01 | adamw: this is simply a bug (everybody would agree here) so we should fix it instead of adding workarounds | |
| mclasen | jwb: the desktop sig has editorial control over the contents of the desktop spin | |
| dwmw2 | Proposal: FESCo welcomes adamw's gnome-alsamixer package and wants it in F-11 by default, along with making it _visible_ from the normal panel applet in some way. | |
| drago01 | adamw: and changing the volume is not 'ecotic' ;) | |
| f13 | drago01: even with the old mixer just adjusting the slider in the panel wouldn't always work, so that's not a new issue. | |
| ixs | jwb: I would like to see a bit more willingness for compromise actually. That way the discussion would probably be much more constructive. | |
| drago01 | f13: yeah thats why I don't think adding mixer app would solve anything about that | |
| f13 | drago01: taking out the existing one wouldn't fix it either | |
| drago01: we're not going to magically fix that with any existing software | ||
| mclasen | ixs: after what lennart is subjected to on f-d-l, you have to admire him for being willing to discuss this at all... | |
| drago01 | f13: which hardware is that? and which slider does control the volume if master and/or pcm doesn't? that can be fixed by a kernel side quirk | |
| bpepple | mclasen: agreed. | |
| ixs | mclasen: Hey, certainly no discussion that there were one or two people or maybe even three not being helpful on -devel. | |
| f13 | drago01: the problem was the "and or" | |
| ixs | mclasen: but this is not devel. | |
| f13 | drago01: an app had to be launched to get to the and/or, we're still at that today | |
| nirik | mclasen: agreed, but I wish you guys were willing to concede there are other cases and allow a compromise... | |
| jwb | mclasen, which is what? the standard Gnome spin? | |
| mclasen | nirik: I don't see where we ever said that it would cover every conceivable case | |
| drago01 | jwb: yes | |
| mclasen | I made that point very clear in my very first mail on this subject | |
| f13 | we've hit goto 1 again. | |
| nirik | mclasen: sure, but why do you resist a app being available for those cases you don't cover? | |
| dgilmore | mclasen: you are reading to much into that. the desktop sig has input and it is weighted but you have no control over the spin. | |
| ixs | mclasen: however, currently we're having a rather one-sided discussion which I consider a real shame. | |
| * dgilmore is quite unhappy with the desktop sig lately | ||
| mclasen | dgilmore: I'll have to disagree | |
| f13 | dgilmore: eh, I'd say more that the desktop team controls the spin, but FESCo can override. | |
| dwmw2 | I really wish we didn't have to get into a pissing contest about this | |
| f13 | just like FESCo can override anything else in Fedora. | |
| dgilmore | mclasen: thats your way, i expected nothing less from you | |
| f13 | please, lets keep the personal attacks out of this | |
| nirik | dwmw2: me too. It's really not helping. | |
| f13 | not helpful. | |
| dgilmore | f13: its nothing personal | |
| mclasen | wait, now I am the bad guy ? | |
| adamw | mclasen: i don't think anyone's asked for g-v-c to cover every conceivable case. please engage with what I said. right now, there are very substantial cases - input switching being the obvious one - which it does *not* cover and which need to be covered. as i said, this is a *temporary* proposal. i entirely envisage the alternative mixer being dropped for f12 as long as g-v-c has improved to cover the cases it needs to. | |
| f13 | here's what I see. Desktop team wants to suggest alsamixer as the fallback. | |
| dgilmore | mclasen: im not saying your the bad guy, | |
| f13 | FESCo would like to see something easier to use/find than alsamixer | |
| f13 | the pain point is arguing about whether that "something easier" is installed by default, and where it can be found. | |
| mclasen: is alsamixer installed in the desktop spin? | ||
| mclasen | I don't know | |
| ixs | hmmm. | |
| wwoods | yes. | |
| nirik | yes it is. | |
| f13 | alright, then why would you be opposed to something easier to use/find ? | |
| ixs | adamw: offering gnome-alsamixer wouldn't be a problem. There are ready made specs which do look up to spec for fedora inclusion. | |
| mclasen | f13: making it easy to find is not a good idea, really | |
| f13 | mclasen: and why is that? | |
| mclasen: users that aren't satisfied by the new mixer should be punished? | ||
| mclasen | having two equally easily accessibly mixer is just confusing | |
| f13 | mclasen: they wouldn't be. | |
| the new one is in the panel | ||
| jwb | they aren't equally accessible | |
| mclasen | if you need something easier, you can always add a launcher | |
| f13 | and by all rights, it /isn't/ a mixer | |
| dwmw2 | that's one thing that's solved by having an 'advanced...' button in the simplified mixer | |
| f13 | it's a volume slider. | |
| wwoods | one's in the menubar by default; one is hidden in the menus somewhere | |
| dwmw2 | then it's clear, and they're not just available in parallel | |
| ixs | wwoods: the problem is, which to put where? the one which is simply but covers only a limited spec by design? or the other one, which might confuse users as claimed? | |
| dwmw2 | it solves that problem, _and_ the problem that the fully-functional mixer is hidden in the menus somewhere, when people _used_ to be able to access it from the panel | |
| f13 | mclasen: do we not agree that there are situations and users that will require a fallback mixer? | |
| users of the desktop spin even? | ||
| dwmw2 | we disagree on whether we _care_ about those users :) | |
| mclasen | f13: like there are situations where NM doesn't work for your customized network setup | |
| do we demand to put s-c-network on the panel ? | ||
| f13 | s-c-network was never in the panel. | |
| jwb | nobody is saying panel here | |
| dgilmore | mclasen: no one is saying something else should be on the panel | |
| * dwmw2 is saying panel | ||
| f13 | and right now, I'm not asking about putting the old mixer in the panel. | |
| wwoods | ixs: what? obvious the intended default mixer - the new one - is the default thing that gets started up | |
| f13 | the only one saying that is dwmw2 | |
| jwb | dwmw2, well stop then | |
| fcami | s-c-network is not something that people touch everyday | |
| f13 | and I'm ignoring him at the moment. | |
| dwmw2 | :) | |
| f13 | I'm trying out this thing called compromise | |
| fcami | good luck. | |
| f13 | we have what you want on one side, what dwmw2 wants on the other side, and neither are agreeable to both parties. | |
| ixs | wwoods: really? even if it will mean serious regressions? I've seen proposals in the backlog suggesting that the new one goes in the menu until it is ready for a larger part of our install base. | |
| f13 | ergo I'm trying to find some middle ground | |
| ixs | wwoods: doesn't sound bad to me. | |
| f13 | where both parties are upset. it's the only way to be fair | |
| * dwmw2 wants the new feature reverted. Making the old mixer available from the new one _was_ the compromise :) | ||
| ixs | f13: no mixer at all? | |
| :D | ||
| * jwb sighs | ||
| wwoods | ixs: no. the new code covers most of the territory - it's good enough, so long as there's a fallback for the uncommon cases | |
| jwb | irc is a horrible communication mechanism sometimes | |
| * mclasen considers making g-v-c available in the menus a compromise | ||
| f13 | mclasen: so again, if you're already willing to point people at alsamixer, ^^ | |
| ok, that's exactly what I was going to ask | ||
| it'll make it easier to provide help to people who find that the default mixer doesn't work. | ||
| jwb | PROPOSAL: Do the adamw proposal of packaging the old g-v-c, making it accessible via the menu. Install it by default | |
| adamw | er, there's some signal loss happening here | |
| f13 | we can also put intothe mixer or ask people that if you have to use this, please file a bug | |
| adamw | my proposal wasn't the old g-v-c, it was gnome-alsamixer | |
| jwb | what | |
| , er | ||
| whatever | ||
| mezcalero | ok, so one one side there is the desktop group who specialize in the desktop and hopefully have a bit of clue what they do. And the say we don't want this feature visiable by deault. And on the other side there are a handful of people, who have niches uses of the mixer but insist that their niche usage is prominently available in the default desktop. | |
| wwoods | having the old volume control available in the menus - not in the taskbar by default, not shipping the old applet - sounds like a pretty OK compromise to me | |
| jwb | the adamw proposal, in the menu, installed by default | |
| adamw | mezcalero: "I want to record something" is not a niche use. | |
| mezcalero | adamw: you can record very easily with pa | |
| adamw | mezcalero: if you want to record from mic in and your card happens to default to line in, at present, you have no option but figuring out how to do "alsamixer -c0 -Vcapture" | |
| f13 | mezcalero: I want to use voip isn't niche either. | |
| jwb | ARGH | |
| mezcalero | all these cases are cases where mic is used | |
| mic should be default | ||
| adamw | mezcalero: but you can't select the correct input channel with g-v-c at present. this is acknowledged by lennart and planned for f12 timeframe. it is not at issue. | |
| f13 | mezcalero: which mic, and how do you change it? | |
| jwb | stop arguing the same damn points over and over | |
| mezcalero | line-in should be the option that can be switched too if people want to | |
| if mic was not the default for you | ||
| then file a abug against alsa | ||
| adamw | mezcalero: then what if you want to record from line-in and it defaults to mic? or you have two mic inputs and you want to use the other one? these are not niche cases. please stop arguing the point. | |
| f13 | we're digressing again. | |
| dwmw2 | Proposal: FESCo wants adamw's package approved asap and shipped in F11 by default | |
| mezcalero | i think 90% of all cases were recording is involved it is from a mic, not line-in | |
| adamw | i think you are pulling numbers out of your ass. | |
| f13 | mezcalero: one thing you didn't consider about your handfull of people is that many of them spend a significant amount of time trying to help new and lost users, and don't find the fallback of alsamixer acceptable. | |
| mezcalero | and the 10% remaing i would *not* call a niche usage | |
| mezcalero | but as i said this will be fixed for f12 | |
| mharris | dwmw2: +1 :) | |
| dwmw2 | please can all non-fesco people be silent, and all fesco people limit themselves to '+1' or '-1' or reasonable variations on the above, just for a mo,ment? | |
| f13 | mezcalero: we don't really expect the desktop people to be spending a lot of time helping users, history and all that. | |
| ixs | dwmw2: +1 | |
| dwmw2: strike that | ||
| * dwmw2 facepalms | ||
| mclasen | f13: thanks, nice one | |
| f13 | mclasen: am I wrong? | |
| mclasen | f13: I'll keep that in mind | |
| nirik | dwmw2: +1 (I assume you mean default in the desktop spin, not all spins?) | |
| f13 | mclasen: do you really spend a lot of time in #fedora or fedora-list helping users? | |
| dwmw2 | I mean the default spin, so yes. | |
| sharkcz | dwmw2: +1 | |
| mezcalero | f13: i certainly spent too much time on fedora-devel@ being insulted | |
| nirik | I think this is a good compromise between the desktop folks wanting to have the new volume control by default and allowing users with use cases that are not supported a easy to find fallback. | |
| mclasen | f13: no, I don't. I don't expect you either... | |
| bpepple | mezcalero: agreed. you've taken a lot more abuse than you should in those threads. | |
| f13 | mclasen: I didn't claim that I did. | |
| nirik | the most frequent thing in #fedora is telling people to use alsamixer -c0 to adjust volume so they get any sound. | |
| f13 | mclasen: however people like adamw and nirik and others in FESCo do. | |
| * nirik does spend far too much time in #fedora. | ||
| wwoods | Since it's come to this, I think we can say that the QA Team recommendation is that the VolumeControl feature does *not* match its original specification and should therefore be deferred to F12 *unless* there's some other way provided cover the missing bits of functionality - e.g. providing the old mixer UI somewhere in the menus. | |
| adamw | (mostly i'm on the forums, not fedora-list or irc. but yes, lots of user assistance.) | |
| nirik | (but note that we don't have a bunch of f11 people in there yet) | |
| wwoods | adamw: does that sound right? | |
| mezcalero | wwoods: uh???? | |
| adamw | wwoods: well, it's put a bit harsher than i'd really mean. | |
| dwmw2 | that sounds like we have +2 for a proposal of 'revert the VolumeControl feature' | |
| wwoods | yeah, well | |
| * nirik did not vote to revert. | ||
| * bpepple didn't either. | ||
| * sharkcz too | ||
| f13 thinks that there are too many proposals out. | ||
| adamw | wwoods is speaking on behalf of the QA team, not fesco. | |
| wwoods | I'm not a FESCo member, so don't count this | |
| dwmw2 | oh, right. | |
| wwoods | it's just a recommendation. | |
| dwmw2 | I think we're going round in circles. | |
| dwmw2 | Proposal: FESCo wants adamw's package approved asap and shipped in F11 by default | |
| * nirik suspects again that we won't get anything voted on/done here. ;) | ||
| f13 | <dwmw2> Proposal: FESCo wants adamw's package approved asap and shipped in F11 by default | |
| dwmw2 | (in the default/desktop spin, that is) | |
| jwb | +1 | |
| dwmw2 | +1 | |
| * nirik already voted +1. I think its a ok compromise for f11, and hopefully can get yanked for f12. | ||
| wwoods | mezcalero: AFAICT bits of the scope are incomplete - as discussed earlier. (simplifying the stuff ALSA provides from the kernel, exposing some hardware features in the frontends) | |
| sharkcz | +1 | |
| jwb | dgilmore, bpepple? | |
| ixs | I think bpepple voted already for that a few mins ago, but it'd be nice to reaffirm. | |
| bpepple | -1. I think we sorta ambushed the desktop guys with this, since this feature has been advertised/discussed for awhile and these issues should have been brought up *way* earlier. | |
| dgilmore | +1 | |
| mezcalero | wwoods: some hw features? | |
| mezcalero | wwoods: where we explicit which ones? | |
| nirik | bpepple: the feature will still be there. | |
| halfline | uhh when did fesco gain control over what's default in the desktop spin? | |
| nirik | bpepple: this is not the revert. | |
| mclasen | bepple: I couldn't agre more. It is a repeat of the empathy fiasco in f10 | |
| wwoods | mezcalero: no, just: "PulseAudio to allow supporting features in the front-ends" - I understand this to mean support for hardware features like input switching, but I might misunderstand it | |
| nirik | halfline: when the fedora board delegated technical decisions to fesco over the Fedora project. | |
| mezcalero | wwoods: i didn't write that line, but I'd certainly not understand how you understand it | |
| bpepple | nirik: I know, but it sorta goes against what the feature proposal is. Regardless, if I'm in the minority in that thinking, that's alright. | |
| mezcalero | wwoods: so, i think your proposal is bogus | |
| dgilmore | halfline: its always been the case | |
| wwoods | mezcalero: what would you take it to mean? It's not marked DONE so I assume there's something incomplete there? | |
| mezcalero | wwoods: it's like interpeting the quran | |
| dgilmore | halfline: we have nearly always delegated it | |
| halfline | nirik: no there's some break down here. the desktop spin defaults are controled by the desktop team | |
| mezcalero | wwoods: the feature is marked 100% | |
| halfline | and feature pages are a marketing thing | |
| mezcalero | wwoods: so if you want me to add to 100% there i am happy to do that fo your | |
| nirik | halfline: I would disagree. If you think that is not the case, please feel free to bring it up to the board? | |
| halfline | a rejected feature doesn't mean "doesn't go in", it means "isn't marketed" | |
| jwb | that is true | |
| dgilmore | halfline: not always | |
| dwmw2 | nirik: he's right. The defaults are controlled by the desktop team for their spin. If, on the other hand, they want to call it 'Fedora'.... :) | |
| jwb | however defaults and inclusions can still be changed by FESCo | |
| f13 | halfline: there is no breakdown, FESCo ultimately has control over everything. That they don't use the control is because they prefer to delegate, but in cases where a compromise cannot be met... | |
| dwmw2 | I still wish we could avoid that particular pissing contest though | |
| jwb | yeah, it seems pretty stupid to be talking about this right now | |
| nirik | dwmw2: we already have not... forcing a change to the desktop spin. | |
| dwmw2 | f13: well, ultimately it would go to the board I suppose. | |
| jwb | that would be sad | |
| f13 | halfline: a rejected feature uses the contingency plan. However FESCo isn't asking to reject the feature, they're asking to modify the feature | |
| jwb | the last time the board made a technical decision was codeina | |
| dwmw2 | heh | |
| * nirik nods. This is sad all around. I don't see why the compromise is so horrible. The desktop folks seem unwilling to give any at all here. | ||
| f13 | that ended... swell | |
| wwoods | everything else the board has deferred to FESCo | |
| dwmw2 | how many FESCo members are here? | |
| dwmw2 | is +5 -1 a 'yes' or not? | |
| who didn't vote? | ||
| mclasen | nirik: I already gave you installing adams mixer | |
| jwb | we are missing j-rod an jds2001 | |
| abadger1999 | -notting, j-rod, jds2001 | |
| nirik | mclasen: but not by default? or you will allow it on the spin? | |
| bpepple | dwmw2: It passed with a majority. | |
| jwb | and notting | |
| adamw | mclasen: er, wait - installing it by default? that's all the proposal is... | |
| halfline | f13: well my point is, (and i just came into the middle of this so i'm missing a lot of context), it doesn't seem like fesco is *asking* anything | |
| f13 | halfline: you did miss a lot | |
| dwmw2 | ok. For the record then: | |
| jwb | dwmw2, yes the proposal passed | |
| dwmw2 | Proposal #2: FESCo doesn't believe that it's sufficient for gnome-alsamixer to be hidden in the menus, since it's the functionality that people have _lost_ from what was in the panel. FESCo would like it to be reachable that way somehow -- either through the right-click menu on the panel applet, through a button in the simple g-v-c, or something else. | |
| adamw | mclasen: we're not proposing anything running persistently or being on the panel or anything, just an app in the menus. | |
| dwmw2 | +1 | |
| warren | NOTE: This isn't an applet. It will be hidden away in menus. | |
| jwb | -1 to Proposal #2 | |
| i'm not here to dictate what upstream projects do | ||
| wwoods | and the features pages *aren't* just for marketing - the scope is supposed to represent the actual *required* functionality of the feature, so when stuff like this and Empathy aren't quite finished at Preview time we can have *some* documented criteria to determine whether it's done *enough* | |
| dwmw2 | this is about what _Fedora_ does. | |
| f13 | halfline: there were a number of proposals, ranging from the absurd to the compromise we've come up with | |
| jwb | the button is upstream. it's been answered with an emphatic no | |
| dwmw2 | we can have our _own_ panel app which can run either the pa or the alsa volume thing | |
| f13 | halfline: and really, the desktop team could continue to refuse and escalate to the board, but I'd rather not see that happen. | |
| warren | My opinion matters not much, but I would think an "Advanced" button in g-v-c would be pretty good until the advanced app is no longer needed. | |
| mclasen | adamw: I'm not happy at all about the idea to install it by default, but if that is what it takes to close this discussion | |
| * warren expects to be chewed out by his team. | ||
| mclasen | we certainly ship more sucky software in the menus.... | |
| adamw | mclasen: ok, thanks, then. | |
| nirik | -1 to proposal 2 here. | |
| adamw | mclasen: fwiw i'm happy for proposal #2 not to pass, i don't expect it will. | |
| mclasen | warren: don't mix up things now, we're just closing this down | |
| nirik | mclasen: I sure hope it will close things. | |
| sharkcz | -1 also here | |
| bpepple | -1 also. | |
| dwmw2 | ok, that's not passed then (as I expected) | |
| is there anything further to discuss on this topic? | ||
| adamw | just a quick note: I'm not actually an approved packager for fedora | |
| * nirik notes that changes should be done ASAP. We are super close to release. | ||
| adamw | so either someone else should adopt the package or i need to get sponsored etc | |
| nirik | adamw: file a review request and I can review it for you. | |
| adamw | so, whoever wants to take that up with me, please contact me elsewhere and we'll sort it out | |
| * dwmw2 will sponsor | ||
| dwmw2 | find me later, but not tonight -- I should have been in the pub an hour ago | |
| ixs | adamw: http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewvc/rpms/gnome-alsamixer/ | |
| I think the necessary tool is already in cvs. | ||
| * bpepple notes we're at the 2 hour point. | ||
| nirik | ok, anything further? | |
| wwoods | mclasen: seriously - and there's a definite roadmap for improving the volume situation to the point where this won't be necessary in 3-6 months. but.. who was the last person to touch, say, s-c-bootloader? | |
| * nirik will close the meeting in 30 | ||
| nirik | Thanks for coming everyone! | |
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