| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Meeting rules at http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines -- Init process | ||
| * j-rod here | ||
| jwb is here | ||
| jds2001 here | ||
| bpepple | FESCo meeting ping -- bpepple, dgilmore, dwmw2, jwb, notting, nirik, kick_, jds2001, j-rod | |
|---|---|---|
| Hi everybody; who's around? | ||
| * jwb is here | ||
| Kick__ is here | ||
| nirik is here. | ||
| j-rod is still here | ||
| jds2001 | ||
| bpepple | ok, I see six of us here, so we can probably get started. | |
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting - Final F11 Schedule - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/11/Schedule - all | ||
| * notting is here | ||
| bpepple | rel-eng finalized their schedule proposal. | |
| everyone get a chance to look it over? and if so, are there any objections to it? | ||
| * jds2001 hopes that feature freeze != beta freeze will help, we'll see. | ||
| nirik is fine with that, +1 | ||
| j-rod | worksforme | |
| +1 | ||
| jds2001 | +1 | |
| notting | +1 | |
| bpepple | +1 | |
| jwb | +1 | |
| Kick__ | +1 | |
| bpepple | ok, I see seven '+1', and no objections, so we've approved the schedule. | |
| wwoods | Please note that we (rel-eng, QA) are expecting FESCo to make final decisions on whether to keep or defer features at the meeting *before* the freeze | |
| nirik | wwoods: yeah, thats a good plan. | |
| bpepple | wwoods: the final freeze on 4/14, correct? | |
| wwoods | to give rel-eng/QA a week to enact contingency plans (i.e. rearrange comps etc.) before the freeze happens | |
| well, each of the freezes, really | ||
| but yes | ||
| that's the critical one | ||
| bpepple | so, we should make any final decisions by 4/8 at the latest. | |
| wwoods | Feature Freeze (Mar 3) is also important - anything not testable by that date shoudl be deferred | |
| Which means any feature that's not testable and nearly complete by Feb. 25 | ||
| may be pushed to F12 | ||
| yes. that soon. | ||
| bpepple | wwoods: sounds good. | |
| I'll put those dates in my meeting summary. | ||
| * nirik needs to get going on his feature page... :) | ||
| nirik | we may want to highlight that with a post to fedora-devel-announce as well? | |
| bpepple | nirik: yeah, not a bad idea. | |
| wwoods | yes, final release is all the way in the summer but new features must be specced out and testable (i.e. nearly complete) in *12 weeks* | |
| bpepple | I think poelcat usually sends out an e-mail reminding about the feature process, maybe we can have him add those dates to the message. | |
| * jds2001 has been the bad guy on the announce list lately. | ||
| jds2001 | so I guess I can continue :) | |
| bpepple | jds2001: works for me. thanks! | |
| jds2001 | (i.e. I'll draft and send the mail - hopefully today) | |
| wwoods | obviously it's up to FESCo's judgement - if something's not testable on Feb. 25 but the packages will be in the Feb. 26 rawhide spin, that's probably fine | |
| jds2001 | it'll include the scope/test plan stuff from last week too. | |
| wwoods | so: a week before alpha freeze (Jan. 14) every feature needs a spec | |
| Feb. 25, features need to be pretty dang close to meeting that spec, and have a test plan that I can follow to confirm that fact | ||
| Apr. 8, features need to be 100% complete and all final packages should be built | ||
| it sounds like a long time to freeze but it's the same schedule we've had for a couple years. we're just actually trying to *enforce* it this time. | ||
| bpepple | wwoods: yeah, that's something I would like us (FESCo) to do a better job this release. | |
| ok, anything else in regard to the schedule anyone want to bring up? | ||
| alright, if there is nothing else we can move on. | ||
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting - Merge dist-f11-python with Rawhide on Thursday - https://fedorahosted.org/rel-eng/ticket/1114 - all | ||
| bpepple | ivazquez: ping. | |
| ivazquez | Pong. | |
| bpepple | alright, ivazquez is looking to merge python-2.6 with Rawhide on thursday. | |
| nirik | so how much is left that will break? | |
| ivazquez | I don't rightly know. | |
| There have been... issues. | ||
| * jds2001 notes pretty much all of system-config-* is there, lots of python modules | ||
| ivazquez | libtool, build wars, and so on. | |
| But I did get yum and pygtk2 working. | ||
| And a fair number of s-c-* packages. | ||
| jwb | ok, let me ask a slightly different question | |
| is there really a better time or better plan for getting this in, other than slamming it in and seeing what happens? | ||
| * nirik notes yum is important, to allow people to update to fixed packages. ;) | ||
| XulChris | you dont need yum to update | |
| jds2001 | I see 706 pakcages in dist-f11-python | |
| ivazquez | Different, yes. Better, no. | |
| There will be issues regardless of when it happens. | ||
| jds2001 | who knows how many of them actually work? | |
| nirik | XulChris: sure, but makes it easier. | |
| jds2001 | wll 704 counting the two header lines :) | |
| ivazquez | The only thing that needs to happen for yum to work on Thursday is that rpm needs to be rebuilt. | |
| Kick__ | ivazquez: do you have a wiki page which lists some common issues that packagers should look out for ? | |
| notting | ivazquez: that's sort of a biggie | |
| jeremy | fwiw, I'm updating my laptop now so that anything to try to help make sure anything super-obviously-broken gets fixed up | |
| ivazquez | notting: I know. It got caught in a build war. | |
| bpepple | ivazquez: that was pkconfig issue, right? | |
| ivazquez | It was caused by the pkgconfig issue. | |
| I don't see it as a big deal though. | ||
| A bump and a build, and we're in business. | ||
| jeremy | ivazquez: I think that we have to have working yum to switchover. but bump and build of rpm I can do this afternoon | |
| ivazquez | Well, I see little point in doing it until the tags are merged. | |
| ivazquez | The other big package issues are libtool and xulrunner. | |
| I'm working on fixing libtool, which will fix avahi, which will unblock a pile of packages. | ||
| ivazquez | caillon said he would do something about xulrunner. | |
| jds2001 | ivazquez: no, build a new rpm in dist-f11-python so that it Just Works(TM) when merged | |
| ivazquez | jds2001: I'm not interested in another build war over rpm. Every time I see it go back to dist-f11... it takes a bit out of me. | |
| * Kick__ unfortunately wasn't aware of any libtool issues until ivazquez filed a bug today | ||
| ivazquez | I should've filed it earlier, and I'll take the heat for that one. | |
| I have a feature page up, but it hasn't been wrangled yet. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Python_2.6 | ||
| So, which questions did I miss... | ||
| Oh yes, package issues. | ||
| There really aren't any. It's just a matter of stomping on depsolve failures. | ||
| ivazquez | There are a few code issues, but I and others have been stomping on them as they show up. | |
| notting | assuming yum & rpm are ready, +1 from me | |
| ivazquez | Nonetheless, avahi and xulrunner are probably shadowing a few more. | |
| Kick__ | what's the state of anaconda ? | |
| nirik | +1 (with nottings proviso) | |
| ivazquez | It built. I don't know that it works. | |
| jds2001 | ivazquez: your page was in the wrong category, I fixed it for ya :) | |
| Kick__ | not a problem for me if rawhide isn't installable for a few days | |
| ivazquez | jds2001: Oh. I just followed the rules in the template. | |
| jds2001 | again, +1 if yum and rpm are OK | |
| nirik | ivazquez: additionally, would you be willing to write up a wiki page/SOP/howto on how to use a seperate tag to merge something like this? It would be great to reuse what you have learned for other people doing this down the road... if you have time to write it up. | |
| Kick__ | +1 with yum and rpm | |
| j-rod | yeah, its early enough, breakage is almost mandatory right now. :) | |
| +1 | ||
| ivazquez | nirik: Sure, I can do that. | |
| jds2001 | ivazquez: you used FeaturePageReady.... instead of FeatureReady.... :) | |
| ivazquez | Ah, okay. | |
| bpepple | +1 here also, assuming yum & rpm are ok. | |
| ivazquez | Any further questions? | |
| jds2001 | ivazquez: you're the first one to incur my wrath here, but scope and test plan are weofully inadequate :P | |
| but those dont have to be in place til later | ||
| alpha freeze for scope, beta freeze for test plan | ||
| ivazquez | The problem with Scope is that Python is so pervasive in Fedora that it almost ends up being "everything". | |
| bpepple | ivazquez: ok, I see six '+1' (providing rpm & yum are ok), and no objections, so your proposal has been approved. | |
| jds2001 | yeah :P | |
| ivazquez | If rpm gets a rebuild then yum will be fine. I have it running in a VM here. | |
| f13 | ivazquez: surely though you could come up with some measure of "success" | |
| ivazquez | It does emit 3 DeprecationWarnings which I've passed to James. | |
| f13 | ivazquez: a turning point between "fix remaining bugs" and "throw it all out and scratch the feature" | |
| jwb | "it pisses enough users off that we have a mass exodus to ubuntu" | |
| ? | ||
| jwb | :) | |
| XulChris | it wont be that bad ;-) | |
| ivazquez | My definition of success would be that we can install a system usable by a Fedora packager to get their tasks done. | |
| jwb | ivazquez, i think that's fair | |
| ivazquez | So anaconda, koji, bodhi, mash, pungi. | |
| XulChris | migrating to python3 might be though ;-) | |
| jwb | ivazquez, and yum and rpm | |
| ivazquez | rpm and yum are way, way below those. | |
| If we can get those five then we're golden. | ||
| jwb | so, how far off are those 5? | |
| ivazquez | One moment... | |
| ivazquez | All but bodhi have been built. | |
| bodhi was blocked by python-cherrypy2, which only got built very recently thanks to abadger1999's efforts. | ||
| But none have been tested. | ||
| jwb | can you have them tested before tomorrow? | |
| notting | .... why do we care whether bodhi works with the new python yet? we're not running the server on rawhide. | |
| wwoods | so the scope of the problem is: rebuild every python package in the distro? | |
| ivazquez | I can test pungi, and possibly mash. koji and anaconda are out. | |
| j-rod | ivazquez: doesn't testing pungi require testing anaconda? | |
| er, include | ||
| ivazquez | Part of it, certainly. | |
| pjones | I wouldn't think it includes all of it. | |
| XulChris | arent we sophisticated enough yet to make test scripts for these apps which can be run in %test? | |
| pjones | XulChris: test scripts along those lines for the installer are... difficult. | |
| j-rod | not all, no, but certainly "it doesn't blow up" sanity-testing | |
| abadger1999 | notting: the bodhi package also has a client subpackage used in "make update" | |
| j-rod | and pungi should spit out an iso that could be booted in a guest... | |
| notting | abadger1999: which is not a required feature... i mean, yeah, it should work by f11 | |
| but i really don't care whether or not it works for moving the python stuff over | ||
| abadger1999 | If we can build the bodhi package, though, the client code is independent of the server code (which is where our rebuild troubles have been);. | |
| <nod> | ||
| there's the web interface so it's not critical. | ||
| ivazquez | wwoods: Every package that builds against the .so and every package that has compiled scripts. | |
| jwb | except no | |
| because xulrunner is required for the web interface | ||
| (for packagers using rawhide as their development platform) | ||
| notting | jwb: it doesn't break kvm :P | |
| jwb | not everyone is rich | |
| jeremy | jwb: xulrunner's python bits are just python binding to use xulrunner in things like sugar's web browser | |
| the package didn't exist at all in Fedora until about 2 months ago | ||
| jwb | jeremy, either way, if it doesn't build... | |
| ivazquez | It builds. | |
| I just am unable to do a formal build since I'm not in the ACL. | ||
| notting | which doesn't sound like a move blocker | |
| ivazquez | But a scratch build succeeds. | |
| jwb | ok | |
| notting | sorry, back in a minute or two | |
| jeremy | there are certainly things that will still need work -- but as long as people can continue to 'yum update', then we should be in good enough shape | |
| ivazquez | Yes, yum works. | |
| bpepple | ok, so has anyone reversed the earlier vote? Otherwise, ivazquez's proposal was approved. | |
| jwb | i'll add a +1 | |
| bpepple | s/the/their/ | |
| any other questions for ivazquez? otherwise we can probably move on. | ||
| XulChris | will bugs be filed for the remaining packages that dont build? | |
| bpepple | ivazquez: thanks for all your work on this, it's really appreciated! | |
| ivazquez | Glad to help. | |
| XulChris | i guess that falls under that FTBFS bug | |
| jeremy | especially by me! as I didn't have to do it this time :-) | |
| bpepple | ok, moving on...... | |
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting - Secondary Arches: will they ever fly? (aka, wtf happened to Fedora ia64, and what can/should we do to resuscitate it)- j-rod | ||
| XulChris | i thought this was going to be discussed on the mailing list first or something? | |
| f13 | probably better mailing list topic | |
| jwb | it was | |
| bpepple | XulChris: was it? I haven't read my e-mail since earlier this morning. | |
| jwb | i discussed it | |
| bpepple | ah, ok. | |
| moving on then... | ||
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Free discussion around Fedora | ||
| jwb | not sure if there was more discuss that people wanted | |
| * XulChris has a topic | ||
| bpepple | ok, that was everything I had on the schedule, is there anything else folks want to discuss? | |
| jwb | what is going on with ocmal? | |
| XulChris | yes | |
| j-rod | hold on, back to secondary arches for a sec, por favor | |
| XulChris | k | |
| bpepple | j-rod: shoot. | |
| j-rod | is this something FESCo even cares/should have anything to do with? | |
| f13 | all in favor of nominating j-rod as master of s390? | |
| j-rod | f13: I hate you. | |
| * j-rod glances at the ia64 box sitting behind him... | ||
| f13 | I think it's fair for FESCo to have some oversite on where secondarcy arches intersect with primary arches | |
| che | personally id have most use cases in the arm sector ;) | |
| jwb | j-rod, i think we care in the sense that we want to make sure there are no hurdles to getting it done | |
| f13 | the whole way this is setup was ran through FESCo via spot way back when. | |
| nirik | I think the big thing is that we would like to see more communication from them. ;) | |
| jwb | nirik, that too | |
| nirik | che: I would love to see arm up to date... would stick it on my phone. ;) | |
| che | nirik, ;) | |
| j-rod | one big thing is that ia64 basically went completely dark a few weeks ago, and I don't know if anyone cares | |
| or if its publicly known why | ||
| spot | the ia64 secondary arch people know why. | |
| f13 | any place that secondary arch work would have impact upon primary arch maintainers, that should be overseen by FESCo to make sure that interaction is done in a way that is favorable to the greater maintainer base. | |
| nirik | so, until we know more, I don't think this is really something we can do anything about... I would love to see regular status reports and/or at least a frontperson contact email... but I have no idea how to even request that | |
| j-rod | dgilmore: I think you know more about this than I, but I suspect you're out of the office for a bit... :) | |
| jds2001 | j-rod: i dont personally care, since I don't have any ia64 hardware. | |
| f13 | I care, only from a Red Hat RHEL point of view | |
| jds2001 | but I think we should be encouraging it. | |
| since RHEL does support ia64 obviously | ||
| jwb | why does that matter | |
| jds2001 | (as well as s390, so i nominate j-rod for that post :) ). | |
| jwb | or, more specifically, why does that matter for FESCo? | |
| f13 | jwb: it matters to those of us who live in both camps. | |
| f13 | not necessarily to fesco, I'm talking individuals | |
| j-rod | folks inside RH *should* care about at least the secondary arches that RHEL supports | |
| jwb | yeah, sure. but FESCo? | |
| notting | i think we should clarify the policy to encourage/force regular reports | |
| spot | dgilmore is actually working on the kojisad code now (well, when he's back on the clock) | |
| we should have more to talk about wrt secondaries at FUDCon | ||
| notting | because i believe we (as FESCo) want to know a) if there are particular hurdles that are troubling them b) if the team for a particular arch has gone AWOL | |
| f13 | koji sad? | |
| bpepple | notting: agreed. I think the big issue is that most folks aren't aware of the status of the various arches. | |
| f13 | secondary arches make the baby koji cry? | |
| j-rod | something along the lines of at least monthly status reports from the secondary arch groups would be nice | |
| bpepple | j-rod: yeah, that sounds good. | |
| jds2001 | that would be great. | |
| notting | j-rod: +1 to that | |
| jwb | +1 to j-rod's suggestion | |
| jds2001 | +1 | |
| bpepple | does someone have a list of the secondary arches leads, so that we can contact them, and ask for monthly reports? | |
| jwb | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures | |
| they should all have lists at least | ||
| notting | (and if the people on that list aren't the right people, that's also something we'd want to know) | |
| bpepple | does anyone want to contact them (otherwise I can)? | |
| jds2001 | there's a FAS group for each arch | |
| jwb | bpepple, i can do it | |
| bpepple | jwb: great, thanks! | |
| jds2001 | that should contain the leads, since that's similar to cvsadmin | |
| bpepple | j-rod: anything else in regards to secondary arches? | |
| j-rod | nah, nothing for now. Request regular status reports so we know what's going on, and the rest, we can take to the lists | |
| bpepple | j-rod: cool. | |
| XulChris: you had something you wanted to bring up? | ||
| XulChris | yes | |
| bpepple | floors yours. | |
| XulChris | i have a package which is changing its license to affero gpl | |
| http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/agpl-3.0.html | ||
| and it is a compiled binary, so I need to include the source code with the rpm | ||
| and there are no other examples of packages with these circumstances | ||
| i was wondering if i can just Requires: %{name}-source | ||
| AINAL but i think the reason why i cant just include SOURCE0 is because the license requires that i include all the spec files etc to build the rpm | ||
| nirik | XulChris: I think this might be better discussed at the packageing comittee meeting? | |
| XulChris | but the other two packages which have this license dont do that | |
| f13 | I'm confused. | |
| how is this aspect of the license any different from the GPL itself? | ||
| nirik | XulChris: they don't have binaries tho? | |
| f13 | why isn't the srpm suitable? | |
| XulChris | nirik: no they are both all source code packages | |
| f13: i think the issue is, that the installed rpm must include the source code | ||
| jwb | why? | |
| f13 | where is that listed in teh license? | |
| jwb | XulChris, i think this is probably a better question for fedora-legal | |
| jwb | spot and company can probably help you more than FESCo | |
| notting | XulChris: 6d) would seem to apply, which would imply no need for a separate package | |
| XulChris | ok im not very familiar with the license | |
| upstream is just telling me that i will need to add the source code | ||
| f13 | yeah, I think 6d covers Fedora pretty ell. | |
| notting | but yeah, check with fedora-legal | |
| jwb | XulChris, by all means CC upstream too | |
| bpepple | XulChris: any other questions? | |
| XulChris | i guess ill ask the packaging comittee | |
| and get more clarification from upstream | ||
| about the legal issues | ||
| and cc that to fedora-legal | ||
| there is nothing wrong with Requires: %{name}-source is there? | ||
| other than that repo is typically not enabled? | ||
| notting | you can't require outside of your own repo | |
| at least, that *should* be policy | ||
| XulChris | im not aware of any policy like that | |
| f13 | XulChris: that wouldn't be allowed | |
| f13 | it would break every single person trying to install that package | |
| and require modification of default repo files | ||
| and the license clearely states that you don't have to require people get the source | ||
| f13 | "You need not require recipients to copy the Corresponding Source along with the object code." | |
| XulChris | ok ill pass that along to upstream and see what they say | |
| tibbs|h | BTW, I asked a similar question regarding javascript and was told that we only need to worry about our own source distribution requirements, not those of people who might install webapps and such. | |
| bpepple | ok, any other questions, or should we wrap up today's meeting? | |
| jwb | ocmal? | |
| (or however you spell it) | ||
| bpepple | ah, forgot. | |
| f13 | ocaml | |
| bpepple | jwb: floors yours. | |
| f13 | apparently it's being "worked on" | |
| jwb | seems to be a massive sea of broken deps. | |
| is there anything that needs more attention? | ||
| (because we have so many ocaml hackers...) | ||
| f13 | Richard Jones said it was all in his court | |
| tibbs|h | All ocaml deps will break any time pretty much any piece of the ocaml environment changes. | |
| bpepple | jwb: yeah, the rawhide report is giant these days due to all those broken deps. | |
| f13 | Just to keep people updated, upstream OCaml made some small but | |
| significant change to a library which turns out to break lots of | ||
| packages. So this is going to take some time to get fixed. | ||
| Details here and in the follow-up messages. | ||
| http://caml.inria.fr/pub/ml-archives/caml-list/2008/11/4a13be017ce7f9b70941fe09fbcd9359.en.html | ||
| nirik | I thought it was upstream changing something that they thought wouldn't do much, and it broke the world. | |
| nirik | yeah, that | |
| tibbs|h | Folks need to get used to seeing lots of ocaml broken dependencies; it is the nature of the beast. | |
| jwb | f13, is there any possible way to filter those to the end of the report? | |
| f13 | hurray? | |
| jwb: meh... maybe? But is that really what we want? | ||
| bpepple | probably not. | |
| tibbs|h | If the ocaml broken deps swamp other useful information, then perhaps. | |
| f13 | maybe instead we could corner richard and get him to show us the simple fix, and send a few minions out to all the packages to fix with patches for now. | |
| jwb | well, in the long run no. but i'm wondering if people are simply missing broken deps that could be fixed because of the flood | |
| right, what tibbs|h said | ||
| f13 | jwb: people still get individual mails for the broken deps they own | |
| tibbs|h | But I wouldn't expect them to persist for all that long. The fix is known; it just needs to be implemented. | |
| jwb | f13, we have this thing called 'provenpackagers' | |
| tibbs|h | (Note that I know only a little about ocaml.) | |
| jwb | they don't get emails other than the rawhide report | |
| f13 | jwb: a proven packager should be able to ... read. | |
| bpepple | f13: Is that working? I have a broken dep, but haven't gotten a reminder. | |
| jwb | :\ | |
| f13 | bpepple: are you the recipient of <package>-owner@fedoraproject.org ? | |
| bpepple | f13: yeah. swfdec-gnome. | |
| Maybe my spam filter is being to aggressive, tho. I'll have to give a look. | ||
| f13 | bpepple: it's possible mail is falling over somewhere. | |
| * nirik would also think this would be a good time for a Ocaml SIG to help out... if there is anyone besides Richard. | ||
| bpepple | so, going back ocaml, does anyone want to contact richard and see if we can give him some help. | |
| * nirik can mail him if no one else will. | ||
| bpepple | nirik: thanks! I was hoping not to have to do it. ;) | |
| jwb: anything else in regard to ocaml you want to discuss? otherwise we can probably wrap up the meeting. | ||
| jwb | nope, that was it | |
| bpepple | ok, if there is nothing else let's call it quits. | |
| nirik | bpepple: you do too much already. ;) | |
| * bpepple will end the meeting in 60 | ||
| bpepple will end the meeting in 30 | ||
| bpepple will end the meeting in 15 | ||
| bpepple | -- MARK -- Meeting End | |
| Thanks, everyone! | ||
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