--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Meeting rules at http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines -- Init process
bpeppleFESCo meeting ping -- bpepple, dgilmore, dwmw2, jwb, notting, nirik, kick_, jds2001, j-rod
Hi everybody; who's around?
* jds2001
nirik is here.
* bpepple waits another couple of minutes to see who else shows up.
jds2001there something going on this week that folks aren't here?
bpepplejds2001: not sure.
niriktime change might have confused people.
* Kick__ is here
bpepplealright, I see 5 fesco members so we can probably get started.
--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Features
bpepplewwoods, walters: ping.
bpeppleok, I wanted to discuss whether we should be making Empathy the default IM or not for F10. I've got some concerns about it, and it looks like there has been some confusion about how we handle the testing of it.
* wwoods here
waltersbpepple: do you know of any status update from the empathy people regarding mpt's concerns?
nirikwas the plan to do so? has it been default in rawhide?
bpepplewalters: no, only what was updated on mpt's empathy write-up.  A lot of the small issues looked to have been resolved.
wwoodsIt's been the default in Rawhide since.. Alpha or Beta
bpepplefor those that haven't read mpt's write-up (not it's fairly long read): https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EmpathyVsPidginUsability
waltersbpepple: what are your concerns?
wwoodsit's also a couple months old
bpeppleI've got concerns about the readiness of some the plugins, and the lack of features when compare to pidgin.
wwoodscan't send/receive files
is a big one
bpeppletp-idle seems to be missing some features that make irc support pretty lacking (doesn't set room title in windows, etc).
tp-haze seems to have some issues also, since I hear intermittently that folks can't connect to aim.
walters: what's your opinion on the readiness of Empathy?
waltersbpepple: i haven't checked in on it in the last month or two; i guess my thoughts are that if we decide not to go with it, we should have a rationale writeup we can give to the empathy developers
drago01yes missing file transfers was the reason I don't bothered continue testing it
wwoodspeople will complain about any change, but they're twice as mad if we drop features in the process.
bpepplewalters: yeah, that would probably be a good idea.
nirikwell, people who don't like it can just go back to pidgin right?
bpepplenirik: yup.
jds2001walters: it's not like we're talking about not shipping empathy
just switching the default over to pidgin
wwoodsthere are some other minor nits, like.. you can't change your user image for haze accounts, etc
it's hard to judge security/stability track record, since empathy is so new
pidgin hasn't been stellar in either regard but current versions seem pretty solid
bpeppleI'm just worried that by installing empathy by default before it's a little more equal to Pidgin in features we'll just be perpetuating the image of Fedora shipping products by default before they're ready.
waltersbpepple: i see 4 general categories; 1) we don't install it by default, we consider it unlikely in the near future too  2) we don't now, but will reconsider for f11 3) we do install by default, but we identify specific bugs we need fixed (there might be a few cycles from the RH desktop team for this)  4) we install it by default
wwoodsthere's also the possibility of installing both by default
* jds2001 votes for 2
ajaxpersonally i can't imagine empathy per default being a good idea right now
bpepplewalters: I definitely think Empathy is something we should be installing by default, but I think it might be a bit premature for F10.
waltersmy personal opinion was wavering between 2 and 3
wwoodsI'd like to see it by default in F11
Kick__give them some time to add the missing features and lets reconsider it for F11
drago01wwoods: disk space? (live cd)
bpepplewalters: that's where I'm leaning also, probably closer to #2.
wwoodsdrago01: yeah, not sure how much pidgin itself uses (we already ship libpurple etc. because of haze)
j-rodI haven't followed any of this at all, I still have no clue why empathy even exists.
wwoodsit's a little too late for #3 at this point
j-rodI'd lead #2 though
wwoodsj-rod: cleaner codebase, integrated into GNOME, etc
bpeppleuses Telepathy & tubes for the backend.
waltersfor user visible features the most interesting thing i think was the integrated videoconferencing support plans
j-rodwhoa, it does video chat too?
wwoodsexcept we already ship ekiga by default
j-rodekiga doesn't do AIM video chat, does it?
nottingaargh, sorry i'm late. head-down debugging
walterswwoods: yeah, though...ekiga is more VOIP
bpepplenotting: no worries.
j-rodyeah, I thought ekiga was just VoIP-ish
drago01it is
bpepplenotting: we're discussing whether Empathy should be installed by default.
walterswwoods: there is overlap, ideally you'd have one technology stack here even if not exactly the same UI
Kick__ekiga has video support, but can't do AIM video chat
bpepplecorrect, empathy can do voip with the telepathy-sofiasip plugin.
j-rodbeing able to talk to an iChat user is the big thing I miss right now
j-rodnow I'm inching slowly toward #3... :)
wwoodsoh yeah, all my testing of the bonjour/salut chat stuff failed with OS X <-> Empathy testing
although that was last month
waltersj-rod: yeah, empathy should be cool i think once the features land solidly
nottingwwoods: link to a test matrix?
bpeppleI'd also like to see this implemented before we install it by default since it would make the whole tp-connection manager thing more managable. http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=518429
waltersbut, wwoods is right that we can't really do 3 at this point
buggbotBug 518429: was not found.
wwoodsnotting: don't have one, although I could make one
j-rodwalters: so does video chat over aim actually work right now, or is that a Coming Soon?
waltersshould just install all of the protocols by default
we're talking tiny amounts of disk space
bpepplewalters: yuck, but that's just my opinion. ;)
wwoodswha? we *do* install all the protocols by default
we didn't in previous releases (Alpha?)
but Preview definitely installs everything for MSN/AIM/Y!/etc.
bpepplewwoods: I don't think so.  If I remember correct tp-butterfly and tp-idle aren't installed by default.
wwoodsbpepple: ah
bpepplemsn,aim,y! are all handled by tp-haze.
wwoodsyeah tp-idle would be a good one, esp. if we can use it to set up a "live fedora help" thing
waltersi think one of the big benefits we provide compared to the mainstream proprietary ones is that the OS is nice out of the box, you don't have to hunt around and download things (even if it's wrapped up in packagekit dialogs)
bpepplewe intall tp-gabble, tp-salut, tp-haze, and tp-sofiasip by default.
waltersanyways...it sounds like consensus is around 2, we should get a wiki page up with our concerns
wwoodsI didn't get sofiasip
bpepplewwoods: hmm, maybe that has changed.
walters: are you alright with that, I don't want to bully you into something your not comfortable with.
walterswell...i wish things were different but I think GNOME sort of did this prematurely; ideally we would have had designer review like mpt's *before* it was accepted
bpeppleyeah, mpt's review was really good.
waltersbut the potential is there, i'm really looking forward to being able to use gtalk video anyways
wwoodsI'm (very) mildly uncomfortable with it, just because we're making the change so late
bpepplewwoods: yeah, that sort of brings up what I would like to talk about next, but before we move on does anyone object to not having Empathy be the default IM?
nottingwell, w.r.t. switching back to ekiga for some things, aren't there ekiga crashers on the blocker list?
wwoodsreverting to Pidgin, as before - and I assume we're leaving in empathy-libs etc, if required by GNOME stuff?
waltersnotting: i don't think we removed ekiga from comps, did we?
bpepplewalters: do you know if anything requires empathy-libs other than Empathy?  I'm not aware of any.
wwoodsekiga was never removed
waltersbpepple: i don't know for sure, my instinct is probably not
bpepplewalters: that's what I'm thinking also.
* wwoods test transaction
wwoodslooks like desktop-data-model wants it
waltersgnome upstream is planning to do something like this though: http://gould.cx/ted/blog/Right_side_status
wwoods: yeah, i don't think the main desktop has a dep on ddm though
bpepplewalters: that's the changes Ubuntu was working on, wasn't it?
waltersyeah, the plan is for it to be in the new panel/shell
bpeppleah, didn't know if those we're going upstream or not.
alright, is there anything else we need to discuss in regard to Empathy?
ok, moving on....
wwoodsshould we also remove any of the telepathy libs (haze etc) that were added to comps as defaults?
waltersgetting a writeup of the rationale discussed here
bpepplewwoods: definitely.
walterswwoods: yeah
i'll modify the 2.24 feature page
waltersand maybe create a sub-page of that on empathy?
i'll send it to f-desktop-l
bpepplewalters: that would be good.  I'll add some of my thoughts there also.
wwoodsyeah, we should do a detailed review of empathy - maybe design it as an acceptance spec / test plan
as in: it should be able to do this, this, and this, and these things should look like this
jds2001wwoods: that ubuntu wiki page was awesome.
wwoodsyeah, but stuff has changed and it needs an update
jds2001oh, of course.  Just something we might want to base a matrix off of.
bpeppleok, so in regard to features one thing I think we need to work on is getting these types of decisions done a lot earlier.
as is, I'm not sure were this type of testing/decision is being done.
jds2001right, it should be in the test plan on the feature page
if for instance one of the criteria is to be able to send/receive files, Empathy obviously fails.
wwoodsin theory the Feature page should spell out the requirements as (I guess) part of the Scope: It will do X, Y, and Z
jds2001instead, the plan was more of "connect to AIM/Y!/GTalk" which it *can* do.
walterswell, for the desktop modules, i personally would like Fedora contributors to follow GNOME more closely and conversely particpate more in the new module process
wwoodsand the Test Plan tells the testers how to confirm that X, Y, and Z work
wwoodsthe scope, in this case, said: "Empathy is the new instant messaging client."
bpeppleyeah, I think in the case of changing a default there should be some kind of feature/ui/etc comparison between the current default and new default.
right - the scope needs to include the required features for it to be an acceptable replacement
nottingso, having missed the early bits - what's broken in empathy?
bpepplenotting: missing a lot of feature pidgin currently has, and bunch of general polish.  Ubuntu had a good review of it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EmpathyVsPidginUsability
wwoodsthe short list is: UI is a bit wonky, can't transfer files, and bonjour/salut doesn't seem to interoperate with iChat
bpepplea lot of these will be fixed by the next gnome-2.6.  I believe the file transfer work is done in git right now.
wwoodswhich is a good reason to get a Feature page together for F11
bpeppleok, so I saw that poelcat is getting ready to start the discussion of the feature process for F11, and I think some of the things we discussed here need to be added to that discussion so we can fix some of the issues we've seen during F10.
I'll collect some of our thoughts, and forward it to the list.
Anyone have anything else to discuss in regard to Features?
walterswwoods: doing that now
bpepplealright, if there's nothing else we can probably move on....
--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Free discussion around Fedora
wwoodsJust a general recommendation that the Scope section have *specific* features that are expected, and the Test Plan have *specific* directions on how to ensure those features are present and working
bpeppleAlright, that's all I had on the agenda.  Anything else folks want to discuss?
* nirik thought he had something, but can't remember it now. Oh well.
bpepplewwoods: I'll make a note of that in the summary.
nirikwe were also going to try and CC feature owners on meeting announcements where their features are being discussed?
bpeppleThat's the plan, though on features with multiple owners that could be a real pain.
* nirik nods
jds2001 wonders what value that adds.
nirikjds2001: might get them to show up and provide input?
bpepplejds2001: Makes the owners not responsible to read fedora-devel. ;)
jds2001yeah, i just think that part of owning a feature is to read just one message/week to fedora-devel.
oh well.
bpeppleanyway, if there's nothing else we can probably put a fork in this meeting.
* bpepple will end the meeting in 60
bpepple will end the meeting in 30
bpepple will end the meeting in 15
bpepple-- MARK -- Meeting End
Thanks, everyone!

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