--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Meeting rules at http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines -- Init process
bpeppleFESCo meeting ping -- bpepple, dgilmore, dwmw2, jwb, notting, nirik, kick_, jds2001, j-rod
Hi everybody; who's around?
* nirik is here.
Kick__ is here
j-rod here
jds2001 here
dgilmore is here
bpeppleok, I see more than half of FESCo here, so we can probably get started.
* notting is here
bpeppleok, it looks like we've got 4 features to look at today.
--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/EvdevInputDriver
bpeppleThis feature looks like it builds upon what was done in F9.
notting"Like F9, but works this time"?
Kick__there have been issues with different keyboard layouts in the past. Have those been solved ?
bpepplenotting: ;)
dgilmore+1 from me if its working ok
nirikso is this going to require munging of xorg.conf ? or X will stop trying to do stuff before the evdev starts up?
* Kick__ sees quite a few open bugzillas with those issues
bpepple+1, but we should look at it closely before RC to see if we need use the contingency plan.
Kick__-1 if it still works only with en_US layout, +1 if it finally works. At least there's a workaround now to configure stuff in xorg.conf regardless of evdev
jds2001+1, agreeing with bpepple
j-rod+1, keep an eye on it
* dgilmore asked ajax to join us
ajaxi shot who in the what now?
dgilmoreajax: :)
how well is evdev working now?
jeremyajax: if you shoot whot in the whot, you'll have to fix evdev instead ;-)
ajaxas far as i know it's perfect in every way
nirikajax: on a f9->f10 upgrade, does xorg.conf need to get munged to use evdev again? or it should just default to only evdev no matter whats in there?
ajaxmmm, good question.
i think the easiest method would be to drop the old keyboard driver entirely and let evdev handle it.
dgilmoreajax: i like that idea
nirikyeah, so that would mean it wouldn't matter whats in there?
ajaxright.  even if we saw a kbd config section in the config, we'd just ignore it and then load evdev for keyboarding
Kick__how do you set a different keyboard layout then ? In the fdi file ?
* j-rod wonders if evdev also does waterboarding
ajaxonly if you define a safeword first
dgilmorej-rod: im pretty sure it does lapdances
nirikcool. I like it... but remember that we need to make sure we have some non suck backout plan... so might just cause it to ignore for now and then drop if unneeded down the road?
j-roddgilmore: hm... assuming acceptable quality dancers... +1
Kick__do we need to adapt system-config-keyboard ?
ajaxnirik: going back to f9 state is easy, yeah.
Kick__: no.
nirikcool... +1 from me then...
hope it works this time. ;)
ajaxor at least, i don't think so.  s-c-k just whacks /etc/sysconfig/keyboard no xorg.conf
notting+1 from me
bpeppleok, I see six '+1' for this feature, so it's been approved.
dgilmorethanks ajax :)
bpepplewe should probably add something to address Kick_'s concern that it works with more than just  en_US layouts.
to test plan.
dgilmorebpepple: well it not working with non US layouts is why it was turned off in F-9
bpeppleis there anything else on this we need to discuss, or should we move on?
dgilmorelets move on
--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/EchoIconTheme
bpeppleI talked to the art team earlier about this, and they didn't have any objections.
Kick__the feature page mentions only gnome. Does this concern KDE at all ?
bpeppleKick_: Does KDE currently use the Mist icons?
Kick__I only know that it's using the Oxygen theme atm
nottingis this done finally?
bpeppleIf it doesn't use the Mist icons, I don't think it affects KDE.
dgilmorebpepple: I think this is one of those gnome only things
bpepplenotting: That's what we need to determine before the RC.  We should at a minimum check that these icons have the same coverage as the current icon set.
dgilmorebpepple: i think KDE defaults to Fedora-KDE
notting53% is worrying
dgilmorebpepple: which is oxygen with a modififed K menu icon
jds2001at this point, i agree with notting - 53% right now is not good.....
j-rodhttps://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/wiki/IconThemeStatus still shows lots of missing icons...
j-rod(at least under applications and devices)
bpepplePersonally, I'm fine with approving this feature initially, but if this feature doesn't at least meet the coverage of Mist by RC, we should use the contingency plan.
nirikit's easy to revert...
Kick__https://fedorahosted.org/echo-icon-theme/wiki/ToDo/GnomeMenus has a long list of missing icons
notting+1 to the idea, nervous about the coverage
dgilmorenotting: i agree with you on this
jds2001me too
nirikyeah, agreed. +1 here too, but perhaps we could note concern back to the submitters about progress?
bpepple+1, since it's something we can easily revert at RC time if it's not ready.
Kick__+1 as we have a working fallback
bpeppleok, I see six '+1', so we've approved this feature
ok, if no one has anything else to add we can move onto the next feature.
--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/EFI
notting-1. efi machines should be burned on sight.
oh wait. +1, i suppose.
nirik+1. Limited testing machines, but also limited machines, so...
j-rod+1, although I don't know if we should trust that pjones character, he's shady
dgilmorenotting: im sure pjones will agree with you
dgilmorewe can blame apple for this crack
dgilmorewell and intel
nottingdgilmore: it was on ia64 way before apple
Kick__didn't alpha have something like EFI, too ?
dgilmorenotting: i know.  if only it stayed there
Kick__: it was different
notting: i wish apple stuck with open firmware
* j-rod wonders idly how the whole secondary arches thing is going, and whether or not ppc is going to get demoted any time this century
Kick__at least it looked similar with those ugly, long devicenames
dgilmorej-rod: it will happen this century
bpepplealright, I see seven '+1' for this feature, so we've approved it.
dgilmorej-rod: one of my goals is secondary arches
j-roddgilmore: I dunno, only 92 more years... ;)
* dgilmore slaps j-rod
bpeppleanyone have anything else to add about this feature?
bpeppleok, moving on.........
--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/LXDE
nirik+1 from me... cwickert does good work. ;)
jds2001+1 here, though I wonder about overlap with say Xfce
nirikyeah, it's "more lightweight" than Xfce... but also less features, IMHO...
notting"Lightweight task manager derived from xfce4 task manager with all xfce4 dependencies removed...." *giggle*
* notting wonders what happens when lxde is considered too bloated
dgilmore+1  im ok with it
* nirik is running lxde on his phone right now. :)
niriknotting: move to ratpoision?
Kick__notting:  the xinit desktop ?
nottingthere has to be some 'twm forever' crowd out there
dgilmorenotting: twm?
notting+1, in any case
jds2001dgilmore: dont tell us you dont know what twm is.
Kick__+1, nice to have for OLPC
dgilmorejds2001: i was offering it as a lightweight option
jds2001dgilmore: ahh, ic :)
bpepplealright, that's six '+1' for LXDE feature, so we've approved it.
dgilmorei started typing before notting added the "twm forever" comment
Kick__: gnome runs ok on an XO
* dgilmore need to put kde4 on one
nottingalthough it would be nice to not have something advertising itself as 'light weight', as that seems prone to cause flamewars later about how light it is. but that's what upstream did, apparently
bpepplealright, that's all we have for features this week.  I believe next week is the last week for new features, based on the new F10 schedule.
* nirik nods.
bpeppleI got a request to discuss Trademark Approval for Fedora-AOS, but I was wondering if that is something the Board should be discussing?
Kick__AOS ?
nirikyeah, the board has to do trademark stuff.
jds2001yes and no.
i think there were technical issues with it.
bpepplejds2001: do you know what those were?  The note I got didn't give any specifics.
nirikits a spin, right? so it should get vetted by rel-eng and the board I thought we decided?
* nirik tries to pass the buck.
jds2001bpepple: they disabled SELinux on the spin
bpeppleah, so he was wondering if we require SELinux to be on by default?
dgilmorebpepple: anything trademark should go straight to the board.
bpepple: we cant give the ok for that
* jds2001 agrees with dgilmore, but i don't think the trademark is at issue here.
jds2001though if the request says it was, certaintly outside our authority.
err. we've not made a formal requirement of it from spins, but running properly with SELinux enabled is part of the Fedora Release Criteria
and spin Release Criteria are supposed to be derived from that
so you could argue that any spin that doesn't work with SELinux fails to meet Fedora release criteria, and therefore shouldn't be fedora-blessed
bpepplewwoods: I'm inclined to agree we should require SELinux to be enabled.  Does anyone know why they disabled it in Fedora-AOS?
* j-rod throws in a tardy +1 for lxde
wwoodsbpepple: I don't know offhand. AFAIK there's no technical reason it couldn't be made to work, so it's probably just: "too hard, didn't fix"
Kick__bpepple:  to many avc's and noone willing to fix the policies ?
bpeppleSo the question is do we want to make it a formal requirement to have SELinux enabled?
tibbsDid the selinux folks actually say they weren't willing to fix the policy?
wwoodsWe could make it a broader requirement: spins must meet ReleaseCriteria (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/ReleaseCriteria)
nottingi think the issue they had was composing with it on
but that should be fine now
nirikwasn't the spins sig supposed to come up with requirements?
wwoodsoh. that's a known issue, isn't it? building live media doesn't work if SELinux is enabled on the builder?
j-rodI vaguely recall something about spin hosts needing selinux enabled, but in permissive mode...
nirikwwoods: it's worse. If you run it on f9 + updates and try and spin a f9 gold it fails... due to selinux updates to work around that.
solution: just use f9 gold on host, or f9+updates in spin.
* nirik thinks we should suggest to the spins sig that guidelines include meeting releasecriteria, see what they come up with for us to look at and approve as guidelines?
bpepplenirik: +1
jds2001nirik: +1
nirikhttps://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/Spins/CommunitySpinGuidelines is what I see now.
bpepplenirik: do you want me to contact the Spin SIG, or do you want to?
nirikcan you? :)
bpepplenirik: yup.
* nirik notes that some of the release criteria might not match up... since we don't have ppc versions of the spins they can't boot on ppc.
bpeppleok, let's move on to the next topic since we've pushed it the last two weeks.
--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting -- http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-August/msg00403.html - kanarip
nirikalso that doesn't say you must have selinux enabled... only that the logs must be free of avc's. ;)
nirikso this is package ordering on split media?
bpepplenirik: correct.
notting... how is this a fesco concern vs. a normal 'bug'?
nirikwasnt f13 working on helping this issue?
bpepplenirik: I know f13 replied back, but I don't know if he was helping out or not.
nirikf13: you around? any comment on this ?
I agree it's an issue, but not sure which if any solution is good...
don't ship cd's anymore? :)
j-rod+1 for don't ship cd images anymore :D
oh wait, we tried that... people bitched and moaned...
* jds2001 not sure what the issue is, of course you have to have all the media to install most products.
jds2001i agree here it's a little lame.
wwoodswe tried that. people got mad. and we decided that we actually care about that use case. for some reason.
j-rodso basically, the idea is to get a default install done using only the first 5 discs instead of needing to download/burn/insert all 7
jds2001j-rod: i think that's it.
bpepplej-rod: yeah, though I'm not sure there's much interest in it based on the lack of comments to kanarip's e-mail.
j-rod"send patches, will apply"
jds2001my posistion here is that: 1) this is a "normal" bug, not needing fesco's attention, and 2) you should have all the media for whatever product you're installing at hand if it comes with more than one (including Fedora).
bpepplejds2001: I agree, I think more work needs to be done (some type of proposal) on this before we need to take action on it.
jds2001now, if we want to make a minimal installation spin that only has the default stuff on it, fine with me.
wwoodsYou mean something that fits on 1 CD? And you can run it as a live system? Like some kind of a .. Live.. CD?
bpepplewwoods: ;)
bpeppleok, anyone have anything else to add on this?  Or should we move on?
--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting -- Setting up FESCo trac for issues that need FESCo's attention - nirik
nottingobligatory 'ewwwww, trac'
nirikI was thinking it might be nice to setup a trac instance and allow people to submit things that they want FESCos attention on there...
yeah, I don't care if it's trac...
dgilmorejds2001: it would be nice to advertise that you can do network installs with just the 1st
nottingnirik: i'm not saying something else is *better*
nirikjust something so we don't drop requests, also allow people to submit things more than 'just mail fedora-devel and we might notice'
dgilmoreit would be nice to have a base system thats installable from 1 or 2.  but then  you really need network. so do a network install
jds2001dgilmore: yeah, there's netinst.iso for that
bpepplenirik: or more than just mail the FESCo chair. ;)
dgilmorejds2001: you can also use disk1
nirikyeah. also could provide some progress on issues aside from meeting time.
* dgilmore really doesnt like trac
j-rodand assign issues to particular members, if need be
jds2001is there something better?
trac would be easy because it's already there at fedorahosted. ;(
* j-rod likes the general idea, is fine w/trac
nirikI suppose we could use bugzilla? :)
* jds2001 agrees trac might not be the best thing in the world, but it's better than nothing.
nirik ducks and runs
jds2001 is fine with trac
* bpepple is fine with the general idea also.
niriknew tickets go to fesco list? or the pool of all current fesco members?
bpeppleI think FESCo list would be fine.
nirikmight need some frobbing to allow it, but sure, should work. The downside there is that someone couldn't opt-out.
jds2001nirik: would we want them to?
nirikgood question. Probibly not. ;)
bpepplenirik: you want to work on setting it up?
nirikbpepple: sure, I can request it...
bpepplenirik: cool.
--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Free discussion around Fedora
bpeppleanything else we need to discuss before calling quits for today?
* quaid waits in the wings with Docs ...
nirikoh, could we possibly see about posting to fedora-announce any eta on new updates? people are asking a ton...
bpepplenirik: I can contact f13 and see if he can post an update.
nirikthat would be lovely.
bpeppleif there's nothing else, let's wrap it up so the Doc folks can have the channel.
* bpepple will end the meeting in 60
bpepple will end the meeting in 30
bpepple will end the meeting in 15
bpepple-- MARK -- Meeting End

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