| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Meeting rules at http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines -- Init process | ||
| bpepple | FESCo meeting ping -- bpepple, dgilmore, dwmw2, jwb, notting, nirik, kick_, jds2001, j-rod | |
|---|---|---|
| Hi everybody; who's around? | ||
| * Kick__ is here | ||
| dwmw2 | hi | |
| * nirik is here. | ||
| dgilmore is not really here | ||
| dwmw2 | am I just completely fucking incompetent, or did this meeting change times again? | |
| * dgilmore is a zombie now | ||
| jwb | dwmw2, it changed times at OLS | |
| * jwb is here | ||
| bpepple | dwmw2: no, it's been the same since we decided on the new time & day a few weeks back. | |
| jwb | dwmw2, you were either sleeping or otherwise occupied for that meeting | |
| dwmw2 | I'm going with the incompetence explanation. | |
| I can take it. | ||
| bpepple | dwmw2: ;) | |
| ok, we should probably get started since there's a lot on the agenda today. | ||
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting -- sponsor nominations -- Dan Horák | ||
| nirik | +1 | |
| bpepple | +1 | |
| Kick__ | +1 | |
| f13 | I'm lurking for schedule talk | |
| bpepple | jds2001: +1 on mailing list | |
| bpepple | dwmw2, jwb, dgilmore: any thoughts on Dan's request? | |
| dwmw2 | I don't know Dan. | |
| jwb | +1 | |
| dgilmore | bpepple: ive honestly not even looked at his work | |
| bpepple | dwmw2: My e-mail to the sponsors list had links to his work. | |
| dwmw2 | he maintains the dovecot package, and cyrus | |
| bpepple | but anyway, I believe we've got five '+1' to approving his request. | |
| dwmw2 | +1 I suppose | |
| bpepple | and I didn't hear any complaints about his request on the mailing list. So, we've approved him. | |
| ok, before going on to features, do we want to briefly discuss the schedule? | ||
| * dwmw2 takes that as a 'no' | ||
| bpepple | alright, then features it is. | |
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/30SecondStartup | ||
| * nirik doesn't think we can discuss the schedule until the outage is over. | ||
| dwmw2 | +1 | |
| bpepple | nirik: I'm fine with that. | |
| +1 to 30 second feature, though it probably needs to update the info about upstart. | ||
| Kick__ | +1 for any boot speedups even if we won't get to 30sec without full upstart | |
| nirik | +1 | |
| bpepple | notes that jds2001 gave a 0 on the mailing list. | |
| jwb, dgilmore: any thoughts on this? | ||
| jwb | i'm with jds2001 on this one | |
| i'd like to see the upstart status before declaring it a Feature | ||
| dgilmore | bpepple: im going to have to bow out for today. im really elsewhere right now and not looked at anything FESCo | |
| bpepple | dgilmore: np. | |
| jwb: didn't mclasen say last week that this feature was primary about the readahead & auditd. | ||
| nirik | bpepple: thats what I recall as well. | |
| jwb | hm | |
| mclasen | I said that | |
| bpepple | mclasen: good, I'm glad I wasn't putting words into your mouth. ;) | |
| nirik | mclasen: so how close is the 30 second goal? attainable? | |
| (I guess so, since thats the feature name) | ||
| mclasen | nirik: I haven't seen any recent timings from harald | |
| nirik | ok, anyhow, +1 from me... any improvement would be good. | |
| mclasen | but afaik, no real improvements have been made, since the adaptive readahead got stuck between auditd and the kernel... | |
| bpepple | ok, I see four '+1', and two '0' for this feature. Do we consider that approved, since it's less than 50% of fesco? | |
| jwb | can i approve it with a "we might not call it 30 second startup if it's not really there" +1? | |
| bpepple | jwb: I'm fine with that. | |
| jwb | it's hard to declare it a Feature before we know what the improvement over F9 is | |
| dwmw2 | that's part of the contingency plan | |
| jwb | so tentative +1 from me for now, but i'd like to get some measurements before RC to review | |
| dwmw2 | it kind of raises questions about the process -- if we say 'no' as a feature, do people stop working on improving boot time? | |
| * j-rod tardy... lost track of time... | ||
| jwb | i doubt it | |
| bpepple | j-rod: np. | |
| dwmw2 | so what is the _practical_ outcome of our decision? | |
| bpepple | dwmw2: no, work still continues, we just don't publicize it in our release notes. | |
| anyway, we have five '+1', and one '0' to this feature. So we've approved it. | ||
| dwmw2 | so if we say no now, and they get it to a 10-second boot time, we'll _refuse_ to mention that in the release notes, whjen it comes to time to write them? | |
| jwb | i think it's more about readahead sucking it up and making things slower than F9 | |
| bpepple | dwmw2: I would hope we wouldn't be so inflexible as to do that. ;) | |
| f13 | perhaps to be determined on a case by case basis? | |
| dwmw2 | bpepple: indeed. So our decision right now seems fairly meaningless :) | |
| jwb | FESCo: Bringing you meaningless decisions since FC6 | |
| jwb | ;) | |
| bpepple | jwb: ;) | |
| ok, let's move on.... | ||
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Provers | ||
| bpepple | jds2001: voted that this was not a feature. | |
| Kick__ | I think that's just a bunch of new packages and as the target audience looks very limited to me I'd say it's not really a feature we can advertise with in our release notes. | |
| dwmw2 | agreed | |
| nirik | yeah. | |
| dwmw2 | but that doesn't mean it's not a good thing | |
| bpepple | dwmw2: agreed. | |
| Kick__ | right | |
| * nirik sees no mention of a comps group... perhaps thats something they could consider... still doesn't make it more of a feature tho | ||
| bpepple | Does anyone disagree that this doesn't meet the requirements for being a feature? Otherwise, we can probably move on. | |
| j-rod | I'm trying really hard to reconsider this as a Feature... but I think I still say no. Its just a few new packages. | |
| dwmw2 | indeed. -1 | |
| j-rod | with a very limited target audience | |
| bpepple | alright, let's move on to the next feature then. | |
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/SbinSanity | ||
| nirik | +1 | |
| j-rod | +1 | |
| notting | didn't we vote on this a long time ago? or just discuss it ad nauseam? | |
| dwmw2 | fuck yes | |
| +1 | ||
| notting | +1 from me | |
| Kick__ | -1 | |
| bpepple | +1 | |
| jds2001: +1 on mailing list. | ||
| * nirik notes that we have a autoanwer thing on #fedora for this question. It fires many many many times a day. | ||
| j-rod | Kick__: care to expound on why you're saying no? | |
| bpepple | alright, I see six '+1', and one '-1' to this feature. | |
| Kick__ | why do we keep /sbin /usr/sbin anyway ? | |
| j-rod | (or do we just move on w/the six +1...) | |
| bpepple | no, I would like to hear Kick_'s concern also. | |
| dwmw2 | Kick__: because it would be too painful to remove them now :) | |
| Kick__ | j-rod: I'd rather cope with some easy questions about PATH problems than explaining why some programs in the PATH won't work as a normal user | |
| dwmw2 | this way, people _can_ still remove /sbin/ from the user path if they really want ti | |
| and when people type /usr/sbin/tcpdump it still works. | ||
| etc. | ||
| Kick__ | removing something from PATH isn't as easy as adding something | |
| dwmw2 | we force people to type the full path at the moment; are you suggesting we should kill /sbin/ now, so that what we've been _forcing_ them to type in full is no longer working? | |
| nirik | this solves a real support issue, and I don't think causes any... I doubt people are going to run things as their user that won't work, and if they do they will be less confused than not finding what they want to use. | |
| dwmw2 | it's not particularly hard to remove something from the path | |
| bpepple | alright, so the vote looks to be six '+1', and one '-1'. So this feature has been approved. | |
| Kick__ | dwmw2: not at all, but adding /sbin to every users PATH removes the destiction between /bbin and /sbin so there's no need for that anymore | |
| j-rod | legacy | |
| loads and loads of legacy | ||
| dwmw2 | including a metric shitload of scripts with hard-coded paths | |
| the pain of moving stuff just isn't worth it. | ||
| let's just add /sbin/ to the path, which is what people have been doing for themselves for ages. | ||
| Kick__ | lets move on, I have no problem with being overruled | |
| * nirik notes it looks like about 5/day for people in #fedora running into this issue. Sometimes more, sometimes less, but thats 5 confused users a day | ||
| bpepple | moving on.... | |
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/VirtRemoteInstall | ||
| j-rod | yeah, it'd be nice if you could do away with sbin and/or get everything really user-runnable into bin, but the effort just isn't worth it | |
| * j-rod tardy with his comments too | ||
| bpepple | jds2001: +1 to this feature on the mailing list. | |
| Kick__ | +1 | |
| nirik | +1 here, I assume it implys +1 to virtstorage as well. | |
| bpepple | +1 | |
| notting | +1 | |
| j-rod | +1 | |
| jwb | +1 | |
| bpepple | alright, I see six '+1', so we've approved this feature. | |
| bpepple | anyone have anything they want to add before moving on? | |
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/VirtStorage | ||
| bpepple | jds2001: +1 to this feature on the mailing list. | |
| j-rod | +1 | |
| nirik | +1 | |
| bpepple | +1 | |
| dwmw2 | +1 | |
| j-rod | a bit hard to separate this and virtremoteinstall, really | |
| notting | +1 | |
| bpepple | j-rod: agreed. | |
| jwb | +1 | |
| Kick__ | +1 except that the test plan should make use of F10 | |
| bpepple | alright, that's eight '+1', so we've approved this feature. | |
| Kick_: I'll add that to the discussion page. | ||
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/TimeZoneAndLocation | ||
| bpepple | jds2001: voted 0 to this feature on the mailing list. | |
| dwmw2 | would like to see more details | |
| but it sounds like a good idea | ||
| nirik | so, this is gnome only? | |
| bpepple | dwmw2: agreed. consolidating the time setting seems like a good thing to me. | |
| dwmw2 | yeah | |
| that got a lot worse in F9 | ||
| bpepple | nirik: I believe so. Does kde use gweather? | |
| nirik | no, I think it has it's own, as does Xfce. | |
| dwmw2 | Would be nice to get the location from cellphones too. | |
| bpepple | we probably need dan to add something about how this affects kde & xfce since this feature ties into anaconda. | |
| mclasen | dwmw2: thats the geoclue integration, more or less, which we split off | |
| since it won't make F1 | ||
| 0 | ||
| dwmw2 | ok | |
| nirik | yeah, and it might be possible to integrate... not sure. | |
| bpepple | s/anaconda/first boot/ | |
| spstarr_work | FirstAidKit is neat, it means people who *gasp* install Xp for dual partitioning can have it repair the MBR :) | |
| mclasen | bpepple: how do you think using a different widget in firstboot will affect kde ? | |
| spstarr_work | unless anaconda 'rescue mode' is going away (or FirstAidKit will go into it?) | |
| jeremy | bpepple: it probably shoudl tie in more with anaconda, to be honest | |
| bpepple | mclasen: I wasn't sure if it would effect kde, that was my question. | |
| spstarr_work | bpepple: not gweather :) there's two things, kweatherservice which is not pluggable, and the plasma weather engines, i wrote which you can load multiple data sources and pick. | |
| jeremy | then again, if s-c-date is changed, that will make anaconda pull it in. but there's a dependency/interaction there which is not captured | |
| mclasen | bpepple: I don't think it will; of course, sharing the data would be useful... | |
| j-rod | fantastic test plan... :) | |
| spstarr_work | if someone wants to write a gweather backend that hooks into my engines then that would be nice | |
| nirik | it would be nice for the scope to be better defined... and at least some talk about other DE integration... | |
| nirik | can we add comments and defer? or are we at the last feature approval meeting? | |
| notting | +1 from me | |
| j-rod | I'm definitely down with deferral, the scope of what's to be done just isn't clear | |
| bpepple | nirik: this was supposed to be the last feature approval meeting, but with the slip that might not be the case any longer. | |
| +1 to this feature from me. | ||
| Kick__ | +1, but the test plan needs some changes as I certainly won't approve any expenses ;-) | |
| bpepple | ok, I see three '+1', and one '0', and a couple of requests to defer to next week on this feature. | |
| nirik | I guess a +1, and I will add comments to the discussion page. | |
| dwmw2 | +1 | |
| j-rod | +1 to the general idea, but needs clarification as to what is actually going to be done | |
| dwmw2 | we might as well do it | |
| bpepple | alright, that's six '+1', and one '0', so we've approved this feature but we would like a little more clarification on this feature. | |
| Could folks please add their questions for dan to the discussion page. thanks. | ||
| j-rod | most notably, the scope shouldn't be asking "what should we do?", it should be saying what its going to do... | |
| bpepple | ok, moving on if there's nothing else on this. | |
| j-rod | particularly this late in the game | |
| spstarr_work | you should only install any firstboot plugin for configuring that for GNOME only not KDE | |
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/KernelModesetting | ||
| notting | +1 | |
| * Kick__ is worried about 35% completion | ||
| bpepple | jds2001: +1 on the mailing list to this feature. | |
| dwmw2 | +1 | |
| Kick__ | +1, though as it will make a visible difference | |
| bpepple | +1 here also. | |
| j-rod | +1 | |
| nirik | +1 | |
| bpepple | ok, I see seven '+1', so we've approved this feature. | |
| anyone have any comments to add before moving on? | ||
| ok, onto the next feature... | ||
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NetBeans | ||
| dwmw2 | bpepple: "woohoo!" | |
| dwmw2 | netbeans... is it a feature? | |
| just another package, isn't it? | ||
| notting | do we like beans? do we like george wendt? | |
| markg85 | +1 | |
| bpepple | dwmw2: I would argue it is since it's a fairly visible piece of software that we haven't had. | |
| notting | +1 | |
| bpepple | +1 | |
| Kick__ | +1 | |
| notting | although. bleah... another ide | |
| probably needs a comps group. | ||
| nirik | +1 (also for epel? :) | |
| bpepple | jds2001: didn't think this met the requirements for a feature btw. | |
| bpepple | nirik: I'm not sure if Victor was planning to do this for epel or not, but I could check. | |
| j-rod | +1, if only for the marketing hype | |
| bpepple | alright, I see five '+1' and one '0' for this feature. So we've approved it. | |
| j-rod | I still think new packages and updated packages aren't new features so much as things to be expected, but meh. | |
| bpepple | j-rod: yeah, I think it's a fine line for new packages, but on high profile packages I think it makes sense to publicize it. | |
| anyway, we should move on... | ||
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/HDTVEnhancements | ||
| victorv | Initially for Fedora, but late for epel too... Thanks to ALL! | |
| bpepple | +1, though it needs some docs. | |
| j-rod | +1 for HDTV enhancements | |
| Kick__ | +1 | |
| nirik | +1 | |
| notting | hey, it saves the planet. +1 from me | |
| do we have a list of other hdtvs that have extended blocks? or just attach and see what happens? | ||
| bpepple | notting: I think ajax had a small list included in the test plan. | |
| notting | yeah, but didn't know if we should also test random other ones | |
| bpepple | probably wouldn't hurt. | |
| jwb | if it warrants sending me a new HDTV to test with, i'm for it | |
| Kick__ | ;-) | |
| dwmw2 | +! | |
| bpepple | ok, I see five '+1' to this feature, so we've approved it. | |
| j-rod | hm, would the folks at best buy mind if we just went in there and tried hooking up to as many TV's as possible?... | |
| drago01 | try it ;) | |
| bpepple | stickster: you mind if we do two more features before handing the room over to you? | |
| j-rod | unfortunately, I'm without a tv w/hdmi out... | |
| s/tv/laptop/ | ||
| stickster | bpepple: It's quaid's call, but I have no problem with it | |
| bpepple | quaid: you about? | |
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/MinimalInstall | ||
| stickster | Proceed until you hear otherwise, I guess! :-) | |
| bpepple | stickster: works for me. | |
| jeremy | there's no one actually attached to doing work there | |
| Kick__ | minimal installs been requested for ages, but we need someone to do it | |
| notting | j-rod: oh, this only works with hdmi | |
| bpepple | ok, this feature seems more like a wish list than anything. Based on the 0% completed. | |
| notting | ? | |
| j-rod | notting: dvi as well | |
| drago01 | "0% (I'm no programmer) " ?? | |
| bpepple | jeremy: you beat me to it. | |
| j-rod | notting: not sure about vga | |
| bpepple | -1 to this feature since no one seems to be doing the work. | |
| * quaid is here | ||
| notting | -1 | |
| nirik | -1 | |
| notting | j-rod: ok, so i need to buy a new computer *and* a bunch of TVs | |
| kanarip | isn't this "feature" more appropriately featured in the appliance-tools/AOS feature also? | |
| quaid | +1 we'll start Docs in #fedora-docs then move over, np ev4r | |
| j-rod | notting: bingo. :) | |
| Kick__ | -1 | |
| bpepple | quaid: thanks, we shouldn't be much longer since we got just one more feature. | |
| j-rod | -1, better luck next time... | |
| bpepple | ok, I see five '-1', so we've rejected this feature. | |
| j-rod | would be nice if someone really actually did it, but... | |
| bpepple | j-rod: agreed. | |
| bpepple | alright, onto the last feature for today. | |
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting -- Features -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/OnlineAccountsService | ||
| bpepple | +1 here. | |
| drago01 | maybe we should make it clear that this isn't a wishlist.... | |
| notting | is empathy going to tie into this? | |
| also, 'woo, ancient metacity theme' :) | ||
| nirik | looks interesting, but won't be really that exciting until a lot of apps use it. | |
| bpepple | notting: I'm not sure, I didn't see any mention of empathy but I'm sure down the line it will since it's now the default GNOME IM. | |
| right now it looks like this mainly ties into the online desktop sidebar. | ||
| * Kick__ doesn't like those keyword storage applications at all, it's way to easy to lose all accounts when you forget to back up the key ring before a reinstall | ||
| bpepple | notting: looks like empathy, f-spot, and twitux support is on the todo list. | |
| bpepple | do people want to defer voting on this? | |
| * nirik got a phone call. | ||
| nirik | I guess I would say defer this and ask for what apps will be ready in time for f10? | |
| bpepple | nirik: that works for me. | |
| j-rod | this is more or less just an extension of the gnome keyring to support non-local creds, right? | |
| (plus the slightly scary thought of being able to store them on a gnome server somewhere) | ||
| notting | well, it appears that online.gnome.org already does this if you ask it to | |
| j-rod | aha. well, as long as I can opt out of it, fine by me | |
| seems to generally bring the gnome keyring closer to on par with apple's keyring thingy, esp. once more apps use it | ||
| +1 for me, but fine w/deferring too | ||
| bpepple | how about we add our questions about this to the discussion page, and defer on voting on this until next week? | |
| Kick__ | ok with me | |
| bpepple | alright, we should wrap up for this week, since we've already eaten 15 minutes of the docs team meeting. | |
| * bpepple will end the meeting in 60 | ||
| bpepple will end the meeting in 30 | ||
| bpepple will end the meeting in 15 | ||
| * abadger1999 missed the Provers Feature :-( | ||
| bpepple | -- MARK -- Meeting End | |
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