--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Meeting rules at http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines -- Init process
bpeppleFESCo meeting ping -- bpepple, caillon, c4chris, dgilmore, dwmw2, f13, jeremy, jwb, notting, spot, nirik, tibbs, warren
Hi everybody; who's around?
* tibbs here
warren here
notting is here
nirik is here.
dgilmore is here
bpeppleok, let's get started.
--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Any objection to this week's report from FPC at https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-February/msg00990.html
* poelcat here
bpeppleI think the only item we needed to approve was rdieter ggz-client-libs proposal,
tibbsJust  a common-sense guideline for coordinating access to a file that needs to be modified by multiple packages.
nottingwhat's a ggz?
warrennotting, open gaming server
*shrug*, seems ok
tibbsggzgamingzone.org, BTW.
niriklooks good to me.
dgilmorebpepple: +1 from me since i found the problem
tibbsThis is used by both gnome-games and KDE4 for handling online gaming, and it's pretty neat.
* bpepple doesn't have any problems either, since one of his packages was affected.
dgilmoretibbs: freeciv uses it also
bpeppleok, I don't hear any objections, so I think we can move on.
--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting -- New Features - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Dashboard - poelcat
bpepplepoelcat: I figured we do this at the beginning of the meeting that way you don't have to stick around to the end.
--- poelcat has changed the topic to: vote to DROP http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/ServerProvides
poelcatno status updates or returned communications from feature owner
this was one of the ones mentioned last week
dgilmorepoelcat: drop it
bpepple+1 to dropping.
* poelcat notes it can always be "brought back" up until feature freeze
nirikdropping is fine with me.
* poelcat notes the +1s have it
--- poelcat has changed the topic to: vote http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Gvfs
bpepple+1 to gio.
abadger1999Was this the Feature that was either punted from FESCo => FPC or from FPC => FESCo?
(In reference to server provides)
bpeppleabadger1999: yeah, I believe so.
poelcatabadger1999: i'm not sure what the history is/was
tibbsFPC punted server provides up because we didn't feel that we could mandate that kind of thing at our level.  Plus it needs coordination.
dgilmore+1 to gvfs
tibbsWiki is timing out for me....
abadger1999I'm wondering if Patrice will feel he's getting the run-around.
f13me too
abadger1999: patrice was asked to update the feature page multiple times, and hasn't done so
abadger1999: I imagine he lost interest
abadger1999OTOH, the feature page essentially says, FESCo, please mandate that smtpdaemon packages add server(smtp)
f13+1 to Bvfs
er G
nirik+1 to gvfs
abadger1999Which kind of puts the ball in FESCo's court to either say yes this is a feature we wnat or no, this is not.
poelcatabadger1999: which they did
any more +1 or -1 for gvfs ?
* c4chris here now, apologies for being late
abadger1999poelcat: Sorry.  I see it now on the accepted feature list.
jeremy0 on gvfs
bpepplerealistically, this is a part of gnome-2.22 so I would say the +1 would have it.
poelcatabadger1999: FESCo accepted the feature and now because there have been no updates in 3 months we are dropping it
tibbs+1 gvfs; at least they talk about cross-desktop integration on the feature page.
jeremybpepple: well, there's some controversy upstream on it, but maybe neither here nor there :)
* poelcat counts six +1s and one 0
bpepplejeremy: yeah, about some regressions like network:///.
jeremybpepple: yeah
poelcatwe need a few more votes one way or the other
warrenTo be honest, us voting on gvfs really makes no difference.
We're marketing it if we have it. Otherwise... ?
notting'work done by fedorans in upstream to make it better'?
* poelcat notes the +1s have it
--- poelcat has changed the topic to: vote http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Swfdec
warrenit is disheartening to our desktop people when Ubuntu claims credit for something they wrote
bpepplewarren: agreed.
dgilmorewarren: sure we need to scream loudly when we do stuff
nottingred_alert: swfdec  - 0 pending testing results
warrenWhat testing results would make it suitable?  That isn't specified on this page.
tibbsCan we actually say that gstreamer-ffmpeg is required for stuff?
dgilmoretibbs: i dont think so
bpepplevarious website, like the ones provided here: http://swfdec.freedesktop.org/wiki/ScreenShots
nottingbasically, some indication that shipping a (more-or-less) neutered flash is actually useful for our users
f13odd that it's marked 100% done but no testing has been done?
dgilmorebpepple: how far away is codena support?
nottingtibbs: no
tibbsThen I guess we'd have to reject the feature as is.
nottingalso, the question is how many of those screenshots work with our codec set
bpeppledgilmore: Definitely not by F9, but I don't consider it a blocker since totem-mozilla doesn't have support yet either.
dgilmorebpepple: ok
bpepplenotting: I believe they all do.
* jwb is here now
warrenI'm not so sure neutered flash by default really helps us.
bpeppleWhat won't work with our codec set is sites like youtube which require the flv gstreamer plugin.
dgilmorebpepple: my concern is that is we say hey we have flash support  but lots of things dont work and we cant say how to make them work,  it will look bad
loupgaroublondwarren, we really need to shout shenanigens when ubuntu does that
dgilmorebut it would be good to say hey we can play your flash
warrenI might be OK with advertising, "You may optionally enable the leading edge FOSS implementation of Flash."
bpeppledgilmore: I agree, but as is right now we leave it up to our users to install the proprietary plugin for flash support.
warrenwhich is still neutered
How much sense does it to advertise a feature that is broken without proprietary plugins and even after that it is still neutered?
f13warren: depends on your level of brokenness
warren: one might argue that all our music players are broken, because they don't support mp3
warrenno no, even with working codecs swfdec can't do a lot of things
dgilmorebpepple: does it work with fedoratv out of the box?
bpeppleI don't think so since I believe they use flash video.
but I actually haven't tested it, so I could be wrong.
dgilmorei really hope they are not using flash video that needs propietory stuff
f13so how about we advertise it as the leading workin progress FOSS flash implementation, brought to you by release early, release often?
dgilmoref13: that would be ok
f13and that I'm happy to leave up to the Marketing team
c4chrisf13: I like it
nirikif you have it installed, and then install the nasty adobe flash plugin, what happens? which wins?
f13and anybody who is concerned cna work with the marketing team on the language.
bpepplef13: I'm fine with that/
nirik: swfdec wins.
f13nirik: that's a great Release Notes item
nirikthat could be confusing to users. ;(
warrenI'm against installing it by default.
f13warren: FF likely won't offer it as an option when you hit a flash site :/
bpepplewarren: that's why we're testing it, and will make a decision before the rc-release.
warrenSeriously who are we kidding
What kind of user experience is it to the user, "Sorry, the default experience demands that you buy plugins, and even after you do that it doesn't fully work."
false hope
f13warren: lets just pack it up and start selling windows then.
* poelcat suggests going ahead with a vote and letting that sort things out--in the interest of time
* bpepple will abstain.
warrenIf this means installing it by default, -1
jeremy+1 package of freedom  ;-)
warrenThis is an unrealistic idea and bad for the user experience.
f13I'm +1 for swfdec in fedora, it's already there, and for advertising it as a feature.  I'd rather we revisit the 'installed by default or not' later.
warrenI'm +1 if it is for advertising that the feature is available and installable.  -1 for installing by default under any circumstances.
nirik+1 for the feature, -1 for installed by default.
c4chris(plus what f13 said)
nottingit was installed by default in the alpha,right?
are we getting any feedback?
dgilmorenotting: think so
dgilmorebpepple: was it?  any feedback?
bpeppledgilmore: yeah, it was installed by default in the alpha,
tibbsI see no reason we can't say "Hey, by the way, we made this and it's cool."  But I can't imagine that I'd actually put it on my desktops.
bpeppleand I've got an open bug of website that swfdec doesn't work with.
nirikbpepple: youtube? ;)
bpepplenirik: I will work if you've got gstreamer-ffmpeg installed. ;)
nirikyeah, but we can't note that or point to it, right?
insert the need for codeina
warrenswfdec cant do many flash applications beyond just video.
maybe it will one day
* poelcat counts six +1s and one 0 (assuming warren has changed to +1)
f13Can we move on to the next topic?
drago01ad banners work fine (if adblock isn't installed) ;)
warrenbut still demanding purchase of proprietary software is showcasing free software?
bpepplef13: I'm fine with that, we've got plenty of other things to discuss.
warrenpoelcat, if this vote was not about install by default, then +1
poelcatwarren: it's binary
warrenthen 0
poelcatso w/o enough +1s we consider this feature rejected?
f13poelcat: erm.
* poelcat just trying to move things along :)
f13poelcat: how about we adjust it slightly so that it says "to be installed by default will be determined later in the release cycle"
poelcatf13: we still don't have enough votes to approve
bpepplef13: isn't that already stated in the proposal?
f13because I think everybody here is OK with having a feature about swfdec, it seems the only sticking point is installed by default.
bpeppledetailed description last sentence.
f13bpepple: nod.
f13warren: read that paragraph, does that make it so you can +1?
Currently the plan is to have swfdec-gnome installed by default, but this can change based on testing results during Rawhide development.
poelcatnotting: did you vote?
bpepplenotting: correct my bad.
nottingpoelcat: 1 for the feature, i suppose
-1 for installed by default
warrenf13, I will not vote +1 now in order to give up my ability to vote against install by default later.
tibbsI still don't know that we can approve a feature that indicates a release note that we can't possibly add.
f13warren: what?
warrenwe really need to move on
* f13 is seriously confused by warren
* bpepple is also, but agrees we should move on.
f13now just wait a moment
* poelcat needs some type of resolution
f13where does this leave bpepple?
f13are we going to have this same argument again next week?
do we just drop his thing all together?
bpeppleblowing in the wind. ;)
f13seriously people.
abadger1999f13: (10:33:49 AM) warren: poelcat, if this vote was not about install by default, then +1
(10:33:58 AM) poelcat: warren: it's binary
f13we have one very good point from tibbs
abadger1999(10:34:10 AM) warren: then 0
warren"it's binary" means what?
abadger1999That's the confusion
poelcatyou either vote +1 or -1 based on what is presented
f13bpepple: can you address tibbs' concern about mentioning things we can't mention?
nottingpoelcat: a resolution of no resolution?
poelcatif gets voted down then owner brings back after rewrititing
why is this so hard? :)
f13poelcat: we need to be able to tell bpepple /why/ we voted it down.
warrenFor the sake of time efficiency of this meeting we need a clearer thing to vote one for the next meeting.  can this be defined?
bpepplef13: definitely, if the release notes need to be modified I have no problem with doing that.
f13poelcat: because it seems to me, the only -1 here is for something that is already in the proposal.
warren: how much clearer do you want it?!
dgilmorewarren: you can vote +1 now to testing and if it is a bad experince it will get removed from default install
f13"this can change based on testing results during Rawhide development."
warrenI move that we approve the feature, but EXPLICITLY return to vote on the install by default part in a later meeting.
I do not want "testing" to decide install by default without a FESCo vote.
c4chrisfine with me
f13warren: ultimately it's always FESCo's dececision what gets installed by default.
warrenBut you already see three -1's on install by default so I'm doubtful that will pass, but that's just a comment.
* poelcat suggests calling stalemate and moving this to the mailing list
warrenwe really need to move on
f13great, lets waste another meeting.  Can't we be flexible enough to just approve the feature and ask bpepple to clarify the release notes and the language around default or not?
f13and be DONE here?
abadger1999"Currently the plan is to have swfdec-gnome installed by default, but this can change based on testing results during Rawhide development.  "  =>  "Whether swfdec-gnome is installed by default will be voted on by FESCo before beta release based on testing"
* f13 feels like we're being a victim of our own red tape.
bpeppleabadger1999: +1, and would add in having the desktop team weigh in on the decision also.
warrenabadger1999, +1 as long as fesco decides installed by default
abadger1999"Whether swfdec-gnome is installed by default will be voted on by FESCo before beta release based on testing and desktop team feedback"
c4chrisabadger1999: +1
f13abadger1999: +1
notting... and bribes. oh wait, did i say that out loud?
--- poelcat has changed the topic to: vote http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/NewGdm
warrenWait, we didn't hear from the superdelegates yet.
bpeppleonly took about a half-hour. ;)
+1 to GDM.
warrenI think the new GDM is ugly, but +1
* poelcat notes the +1s have it
--- poelcat has changed the topic to: vote http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/JigdoRelease
* abadger1999 edits swfdec description
tibbsAlthough I wonder how well KDE interacts with all of this fancy GDM stuff.
tibbs|h tibbs
dgilmoretibbs: not sure. last time i tried gdm you couldnt log into KDE
KDM needs alot of love also
jwbwho has to create these Jigdo files?
c4chrishow does releng likes jigdo ?
jwbwe dont?
f13we've had very very little interaction with it
i left off "know"
f13I kept being told "pyjigdo is almost ready for use, almost ready for use" and never engaged to try it
nirikunity has used it for their respins a lot.
f13and this feature page was written completely without our input
and I haven't seen any patches to our compose tools
to make use of jigdo
jwbhence my "who creates the files" question
* c4chris would like some buyin from releng first...
* bpepple agrees with c4chris.
nottingit's only useful for those who want to use a (more or less) linux-only tool to patch together their media
warrenwell, hold on a second
nottingand even then, only adds benefit for those who already have some of the content downloaded
warrenyou don't realize that jigdo is also potentially a efficient distribution tool
f13so I'm -1 until releng gets some interaction with those proposing using jigdo, a clear picture of how it would be used in our compose tools, how and where the templates go, how we're going to advertise them, how we're going to verify that the jigdo templates are working....
warrenmore efficient than bittorrent
jwbwarren, no, i realize that very well
nottingwarren: it cannot replace bt, ever
niriknotting: there is a windows client I think... also it spreads load over mirrors instead of big iso downloads for one mirror... weather thats better or not, hard to say. ;(
dgilmoreikk defer to releng on this
nottingwarren: so its efficiency is only ever going to be minor and incremental
jwbi've actually used it a bit, but would like answers to f13's questions first
warrenit doesn't require users to open ports to participate
and mirrors are increasingly not very appreciative of bittorrent
tibbsCan we table this now and ask releng look at it and add their comments to the page?
warrenmirror maintainers like jigdo for the efficiency
bpeppletibbs: +1
warrentibbs, +1
jwbisn't that what f13 just said?
bpepplejwb: yes.
f13guess I'll edit the page.
poelcatany more +1 to tibbs proposal?
nirik+1 to them answering questions/providing patches
c4christibbs: (and f13) +1
nirikalso, the 99% isn't very accurate... would still need to get into the release scripts, have procedures written, etc.
f13yeah, I'd say it's more like 10%
dgilmore-1 for now
jwbi don't think it would be overly hard to integrate
f13although I don't know what they've done around pyjigdo
jwbbut verification would be interesting
f13so maybe 'pyjigdo' is near 100%, but the feature of using jigdo is a long ways off
dgilmorealong with releng  id like to what we will need to secondary arches
warrenpyjigdo uses mirrorlist and even checks for fastestmirror?
* nirik also kinda wonders what happened to deltarpm... guess no one was pushing it much and it's dead for now?
poelcat will bring back for vote next week
warrenanyway, we're almost at the hour
--- poelcat has changed the topic to: vote http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/RandrSupport
poelcatlast one for today :)
f13dgilmore: ok, I'm done editing, feel free to add your questions.
warrennirik, lmacken has been working with jdieter on it, there's an open ticket in bodhi
jeremy+1 on the randr stuff.  although again, the upstream side looks like it's going to be fun :)
tibbsThat feature page says "throughout the desktop" and then goes on to mention only GTK+ and Gnome.
warrenpoelcat, suggestion, in future meetings perhaps offer up for vote the obviously not controversial ones first?  that way it appears we got more done in a meeting. =)
warrentibbs, ?
poelcatwarren: great! send me the order in advance ;-)
* poelcat usually tries to do that, but can't read 13 minds
jwbpoelcat, you're doing fine
* nirik isn't sure either how this affects kde and Xfce... but it looks to be in general a good thing.
tibbswarren: I can't vote for something that doesn't even consider anything othat than Gnome.
bpepplejwb: agreed.
warrentibbs, will this actually hurt non-GNOME?
dgilmorethough i think that kde takes care of alot of that stuff already
* poelcat notes the +1s have it ... all yours bpepple
nirik+1 I guess
nottingthis doesn't actually affect non-gnome. it only adds changes to gnome to better take advantage of the existing randr server feature
tibbsdgilmore: I haven't tried krandrtray from KDE4; the KDE3 one doesn't do randr 1.2.
f13if there aren't KDE folks that are around to work on it, that's too bad for KDE
bpepplepoelcat: great, thanks.
f13I'm not going to hinder Fedora's usability just because KDE can't keep up, or doesn't put in a Feature request here.
dgilmoretibbs: kde4's systems settings tool has a bunch of stuff  that shows me vga tv etc
tibbs: ill plug the external screen in and see what i can do with it
bpeppleok, we're pretty much out of time.  Anything we *must* discuss before wrapping up for today?
warrenand perl
tibbsAll I'm saying is that don't make the bias so obvious by saying "across the desktop" when you're not talking about my desktop at all.
dgilmoref13: i think gcc is a go
tibbsJust say "Gnome" and be done with it.
--- bpepple has changed the topic to: gcc-4.3
dgilmoretibbs: agreed
nirikwhat are we discussing on this? it's in, things are being fixed... what more?
f13tibbs: sure, so say that with your -1 rather than leading us to assume "You're not working on KDE, no cookie for you"
tibbsI said it immediately before my -1.
f13so there are two things with gcc4.3
warrenf13, tibbs: let's just accept that the desktop team has a narrow vision, and it doesn't hurt non-GNOME, so let's move on.
f131) perl-5.10.0 hasn't landed yet, spot is on paid time off today and tomorrow.
warrenstill requires fixes he mentioned?
f13we originally were going to wait for perl-5.10.0, but it didn't happen so...
warrenDoes anyone else know the status of it other than spot?
f13warren: he's been in communication with the perl sig, but I don't know whats there.
him being out today/tomorrow was sudden and not well advertised.
dgilmoretibbs: in kde4 it somewhat works
f13I'm still planning on firing off builds on the 18th
warrenlast indication I see there is "Re: perl 5.10.0 makes IPC::ShareLite cry"
it builds but tests fail
f13unless I can get word from him that perl is going to land on Monday
tibbsI haven't seen anything on fedora-perl-devel about the current status of the perl rebuilds except for that package warren just mentions.
f13otherwise I think perl is just going to have to wait.
warrenf13, it should be quick to get a status from spot on monday
f13does anybody have objections to this?
warren: yes, it should, and that's a must before pulling any triggers
warrenf13, it would be worthwhile to wait a day or so if perl really can land.
bpepplef13: Sounds reasonable to me.
* f13 still has to get this rebuild script written by then too.
tibbsWhat was the reason for waiting on Perl?  I can't recall.
warrentibbs, many perl packages have binaries built by gcc?
nottingavoiding double rebuilds
niriksounds fine here...
tibbsThey're all being rebuilt now anyway.
c4chrisf13: fine with me
warrenis that the only package that needs fixing?
f13ok, moving on to 2)
tibbswarren: It may be the only package he's found that needs fixing.
f13if mdomsch's rebuild scripts are any indication, we'll have some 300~ failed builds from our run
we're going to need some help triaging those builds.
f13the script I'm working on is going to track the build tasks it fires off, so that it can check on the status of those tasks later and autofile bugs for things that failed.
warrenshould we begin tackling other maintainer's packages?
drago01f13: when I have patches for packages to fix gcc-4.3 builds should I just commit (when acls are open) or wait for the maintainer?
f13so we'll have a tracker bug with autofiled entries, however it would be good to get some folks dedicated to chewing through it and finding compile issues vs random other crap.
nirikwere is the best place to get help with weird build failures? devel-list ?
bpepplef13: I might be able help out next week while I'm in Sacramento.
f13nirik: yes.
* nirik can probibly help. I can fix easy ones anyhow...
f13drago01: I think a bug filed with a short timeout for go-ahead is prudent
c4chrisf13: I can help
f13drago01: if it's after the mass rebuild, we may just go straight to fiding.
drago01f13: ok
warrenf13, perhaps we should send individual e-mails to maintainers sooner than Monday if their package is expected to fail?
f13I'm also asking jds2001 to lend his triage folks to the effort.
warrenis there a list of failures?
jwbmdomsch's list
f13warren: mdomsch posted the list, sure we could probably do a more targetted mail.
nirikwarren: mdomsch has been mailing maintainers.
warrennirik, ok good
f13crossreference mdomsch's list with the need43 list.
* nirik has gotten several... 3 packages left to fix.
tibbswarren: http://linux.dell.com/files/fedora/FixBuildRequires/ has all of the data.
* bpepple still has got 4 to fix.
f13I just wanted to give FESCo the heads up that this is coming, and put out hte call to arms.
bpeppleagreed, I'll be sure to make a note in the meeting summary.
jwbi have a related questoin
f13https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=432425 will be the tracker bug.
buggbotBug 432425: low, low, ---, Jakub Jelinek, NEW , GCC 4.3 Rebuild Failure Tracker
f13jwb: shoot
jwbmass rebuilds have typically been (ab)used to detect absentee maintainers...  are we going to want to do that this time?
f13jwb: oh yeah, good question.
* drago01 has only one to "fix" .. well fix one of the buildrequired packages
f13jwb: so in this case, it's the failed builds that will get bugs that can be tracked for maintainer responsiveness
jwbyes, but if we're going to go off and fix things...
how long do we wait, etc
f13we don't have any tooling yet to do the tracking, nor do I think we'll be allowing for more than 2 weeks worth of nonresponsiveness
honestly for this one, core packages (things in the Fedora spin) we should actively go after
ancillary packages... dunno.
note that there isn't a lot of time before Beta
jwbyep, hence my semi-concern
f13and if we booted packages due to nonresponsive maintainers, it'd have to be before Beta
jwbi'm almost of the mind that we should skip that this time
f13I don't think there is a reasonable enough time to really actively go after nonresponsive maintainers.  Ideally we'd be using a mdomsch rebuild shortly after Alpha as the trigger for rounding up non-responsives.
warrenthen there's a whole bunch of newly orphaned packages since the last orphan purge
i think f13 and i are saying skip the absentee stuff, just fix packages, and move on
f13jwb: yeah.
* nirik nods.
warrenwe barely have enough time for that
so yes.
f13warren: however you do bring up a good point.
* dgilmore agrees
* bpepple also agreed.
warrenf13, many of those orphaned are really obsolete too
f13warren: next week we shoudl talk about what packages we should block prior to Beta due to orphaning.
* c4chris agrees too
warrenf13, I can volunteer to look at the new orphans and see what really needs pruning
f13actually we probably should see how many of those are on the rebuildlist.
warren: ok, that would be awesome.
bpeppleok, anything else?  Or should we wrap up for this week?
dgilmorebpepple: wrap up
* bpepple will end the meeting in 60
bpepple will end the meeting in 30
bpepple will end the meeting in 15
bpepple-- MARK -- Meeting End

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