--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Meeting rules at http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines -- Init process
bpeppleFESCo meeting ping -- bpepple, caillon, c4chris, dgilmore, dwmw2, f13, jeremy, jwb, notting, spot, nirik, tibbs, warren
Hi everybody; who's around?
* tibbs here
* nirik is here.
poelcat here
* bpepple waits another minute or so to see if anyone else shows up.
nottingsorry i'm late
bpeppleno worries, there is only 5 of us here right now anyhow.
* c4chris here now
c4chrisslow day I guess...
* dgilmore is here
tibbsIt seems tougher to get any kind of meeting lately.
bpeppleok, we can try to get slowly started since I think we have at least 7 of us here.
tibbs: agreed.
--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- sponsor nominations -- Ruben Kerkhof - https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2008-January/msg02116.html
dgilmorebpepple: when do we next have to have an election?
bpeppledgilmore: a month after f9 is out the door.
dgilmorebpepple: thats what i thought
dgilmorejuct checking
* jeremy is here now
jeremysorry to be late
bpepple+1 to making Ruben a sponsor.
tibbs+1 for Ruben.
f13I blame ice and static electricity
* spot is here, +1
f13+1 sure!
tibbsNice to see someone helping with merge reviews.
bpeppleok, that's more than half of fesco, so we've approved his request.  I'll upgrade him after the meeting.
moving on.....
--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo-Meeting -- New Features - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/Dashboard - poelcat
bpepplepoelcat: you want to lead?
--- poelcat has changed the topic to: vote http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Anaconda/Features/SecondStageInstallSource
* warren here
bpepple+1 here also.
poelcatlooks like the +1s have it
--- poelcat has changed the topic to: vote http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/FeatureEncryptedFilesystems
nirik+a lot. ;)
jeremythis is working pretty well
* jeremy reinstalled his laptop to be a guinea pig right before starting classes
spoti'm using it as well
* nirik is using a custom encrypted setup he did for f8, but it would be very nice to have for f9 out of the box
nottingjeremy: in the 'notes' section, we only do #1, right?
poelcatany more discussion on this feature?
jeremynotting: yes.  at least for now
nirikAlso, add to test plan: upgrades. ;( Lots of cases down the road there...
--- poelcat has changed the topic to: vote http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/PreUpgrade
f13adding info about rescue mode to that feature
jeremynirik: we don't have to do upgrades of encrypted root until f10 ;-)
nirikjeremy: true... but something to think about when designing it now. ;)
poelcatany more discussion on this feature?
jeremynirik: *nod*  it's been thought about.  and actually, will probably mostly be there in f9 if not entirely.  as we have to have most of the same code for rescue mode
nottingjeremy: yeah, but we don't want it to blow up so badly you have to wipe the part table if you've done one before and want to reinstall
bpepplepoelcat: nah, the preupgrade seems pretty straight-forward.
--- poelcat has changed the topic to: back for another vote http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/IMDesktopIntegration
* poelcat wasn't sure if "enough changed" since last time
warrenI don't see any problem in letting them try to complete it.  Worst case is going back to how it was in F8.
f13yeah, I'm +1 on it too
caillon+1 from me (and a sorry for being late)
spot+1, reluctantly. i still think its vague.
* nirik wonders how this impacts KDE?
dgilmore-1  too vague
tibbsYou realize that the difference between the page now and when we nacked this last time is three lines?
tibbs|h tibbs
warrenHe might not be good at explaining things in English
bpeppletibbs: but they added a nice little animation. ;)
warrenI have some understanding of what the goals are, and I strongly believe we need it eventually.
f13warren: can you articulate those goals in the featuer page/
tibbsI agree we need this.  The base question is whether we're going to block on bureaucracy.
dgilmorewarren: id like to see more concrete plans for making sure everything works first
warrenhttp://tagoh.fedorapeople.org/im-chooser/imsettings/imsettings-demo.html  wow, this is pretty cool
f13I want the work to continue, but I'd like it to be clarified in the feature so that we actually have something to talk about in release notes and articles and such
warrenThe key to this feature is to make IM enable/disable possible during a desktop session instead of requiring a logout/login.
dgilmoref13: agreed i dont think the work should stop.
i just think that it to important to be touted when its still half baked
f13warren: that might mean something to somebody who uses input methods.
warrenf13, which is the majority of the world population...
f13warren: but is it the majority of our users?
nottingis this ever going upstream to gnome?
warrenf13, if we're trying to reach the majority of the world population it might be important?
caillondgilmore, i don't think we can even say "stop doing it" can we?
warrennotting, that's the goal.
dgilmorecaillon: we can't
nirikThe changes are in gtk...
warrenI understand that folks here might not understand this and I agree the feature page is too vague.  As long as work doesn't stop I can agree for them to write more details.
poelcatcaillon: that isn't the point of voting on features
f13warren: sure, but what I'm saying is that it might help if you worded it in a way that makes sense to folks who /don't/ use input methods
dgilmorecaillon: i dont want to discourage.  but it will be bad if it only works in gtk apps and nothing else
caillonit will be less than ideal, yes.
nottingwarren: +1 from me. they should probably get one of the interaction people to look over the chooser
warrenInstead of just nacking with "too vague" let's bring a list of specific questions.
poelcatbetter yet, add your specific questions to the feature page
warrennotting, I'll personally get an interaction designer to look at it.  This designer has the benefit of using input methods...
nottingwarren: as having the chooser have a 'log out' button seems wrong
warrenpoelcat, good idea.
f13warren: describe what it means to somebody who has no idea what "input method" means
dgilmorewarren: sure  what is their plan to make it work with qt qt4 wx-widgets and all the other windowing toolkits we support
warrennotting, I think that's a hold over from the previous chooser that required logout/login, that shouldn't be there.
dgilmore, please add that question to the feature page
Q: Implications to QT/KDE.
Q: Heading to upstream GNOME?
Q: Describe what this means to people who don't know what "input method" means.
Q: Did you talk to an interaction designer for the chooser?
anything else?
* nirik would be happy to get those questions answered and revisit it...
f13warren: are we going to write a new guide for those that do need to use input method?
or are we just going to hope that they discover the new method.
warrenf13, where to find it doesn't change from the past
f13and are we going to read from old files and use them in the new system for people upgrading?
nottingf13: afaict, if they *don't* want to switch from the default IM, it doesn't change
warrenf13, also it enables by default for languages that use it
dgilmorewarren: ive added those questions
move on?
bpepplepoelcat: any other features we need to look at today?
poelcati think is this a good example of the benefits of the feature process and how it makes fedora work better :)
no more features for today. I will be doing a refresh of the status on this page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/9/FeatureList later today--turning any rows red where updating is needed
we really need better response from owners updating the release notes section with Alpha around the corner.
bpepplepoelcat: when do you think we need to start poking people?
poelcatnow.  i sent out a status email last week... didn't get that much response
i'll update the featurelist page and then send another email
poelcatby the end of today
bpepplegreat.  thanks, poelcat.
moving on....
--- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Free discussion around Fedora
bpeppleanything else people wish to discuss?
nottingalpha is set for... tuesday?
f13so far, yes
IS is still syncing bits (to PHX)
they have to pick up some changes
and it's without PPC, PPC will come later.
(by a day or so)
actually they may be able to pick up PPC today
poelcatwhat are thoughts on the affects of a shortened alpha ?
c4chrisis there a place where one can easily see progress made on ia64, sparc, alpha (and maybe other) archs ?
dgilmorec4chris: not yet
f13c4chris: ppc is somewhat special in that it's not really a secondary arch yet.
dgilmorec4chris: im hoping that ia64 sparc and s390 will get alpha builds at beta time
spotc4chris: soon. we're much closer this week than we have been in months.
c4chrissounds good
jeremyspot: the phrase you're looking for is "never been closer" :)
dgilmorec4chris: ive been spending all my time getting secondary arches working
* c4chris just installed F8 on an ES40 and was pretty impressed that it worked on the first try
jeremypoelcat: I don't think that the Effects will be that great really
dgilmorec4chris: we now have ia64.koji.fedoraproject.org
c4chris: and im working to get s390.koji.fedoraproject.org ready and integrated
f13poelcat: don't expect too much really
f13poelcat: the alpha will service for 2 things.  1) getting a lot of testing on new installer features.  2) providing a sane installer to use with future rawhide trees.
since you can use alpha's rescue.iso and disc1 but point it to rawhide repos.
nottingdgilmore: does <arch>.koji.fp.o actually have to be that arch, or is it just a dispatcher?
f13notting: dispatcher
hub needs not be of that arch
only builders.
dgilmorenotting: only ia64's hub is actually ia64
f13and only builders of that arch, you could plug in off-arch builders to do createrepo tasks and tag tasks
basically no buildArch tasks could be done by other offarch builder processes.
nottingf13: aw, but waiting for arm could be fun
dgilmoref13: which is what the s390 guys are doing  since the builder live inside RH and cant nfs mount the storage
c4chrisqemu ?
f13c4chris: eeew
dgilmorenotting: arm has not started on setting up koji yet
f13: thats what the arm guys plan to use for their builders
nottingdgilmore: back in the day the arm builders nfs mounted disks because it was faster than using their local storage
f13hopefully with more thanjust stock qemu
c4chrisnot *that* bad
dgilmoref13: i dont think so
c4christhat's how I fixed my gcc 4.3 problems
rawhide on qemu
dgilmorec4chris: kqemu or kvm?
c4chrisno, plain qemu, my athlon can't do the paravirt thing
bpeppleok, is there anything else? or should we wrap up for this week?
dgilmorec4chris: kqemu is a kernel module that speeds up qemu  doesnt need hardware support
f13it' sjust not upstream
c4chrisdgilmore: yea, I'll look into it at some point I guess
dgilmorebpepple: i think we should start getting ready for the next FESCo election
c4chrisa big long expensive campaign ?
* spot readies the ninjas
c4chrisoh, there's that too
bpeppledgilmore: what things to you want us to get started oo?
dgilmorebpepple: getting the word out there so that we get lots of nominations
dgilmoreand lots of voters
make sure people are aware of it
c4chrisyea, collecting nominations migth be good to start
bpeppledgilmore: agreed.  We need to advertise it on the mailing lists & planet fedora.
c4chrisand of course the new guys have to buy lotsa beer to the one they replace ...
dgilmorebpepple: we are looking at the end of march
bpepple: may that is
dgilmorewe could set a date now
bpeppledgilmore: yeah, that way we won't have a conflicting date with any of the other groups.
thats all i have. wanted to get it on the radar
bpepplehow about we put that on the schedule for next week to decide a date for the election.
dgilmorethere will be a board election around the same time also
dgilmore:)  sounds good
c4chrisbpepple: +1
jeremylast time around, we held off on the fesco election until after the board election iirc
bpeppleyeah, we got bumped last year because of that.
dgilmorejeremy: yes.  id like to see if we could do both at once
jeremythe question is if we want that to be the general case or not
dgilmorejeremy: we held off partly because the voting app currently only alows one at a time
bpeppledgilmore: that would require someone to modify abadger1999's election software.
jeremyit's something to consider
dgilmorebpepple: yes it would
jeremyone thing about having multiple elections at once is it gets more unclear who's voting for whom and for what
* abadger1999 would love for someone to give the election software some love
bpeppleabadger1999: where's the code located at?
dgilmorejeremy: yes.  the other reason we held off was to see if someone got on the board wanted to pull out of fesco
dgilmorebpepple: /cvs/fedora i think
dgilmoreabadger1999: of did it get moved
abadger1999bpepple: http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewcvs/fedora-vote/?root=fedora
dgilmoreanyaway bpepple lets wrap it up
bpeppledgilmore: agreed.
* bpepple will end the meeting in 60
bpepple will end the meeting in 30
abadger1999Eventually rewriting a a TurboGears app to be able to show historical votes would be nice.  But there are some features that could just be added to the current implementation.
* bpepple will end the meeting in 15
bpepple-- MARK -- Meeting End
Thanks, everyone!

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