| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Meeting rules at http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Development/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines -- Init process | ||
| * nirik goes to get another cup of coffee before the meeting. | ||
| loupgaroublond has his already :) | ||
| bpepple | FESCo meeting ping -- bpepple, caillon, c4chris, dgilmore, dwmw2, f13, jeremy, jwb, notting, spot, nirik, tibbs, warren | |
|---|---|---|
| Hi everybody; who's around? | ||
| * tibbs here. | ||
| dwmw2 | fish | |
| * nirik is here. | ||
| loupgaroublond is kibitzing | ||
| * bpepple waits for another minute or so to see who else shows up. | ||
| caillon | ::grin:: | |
| bpepple | ok, I see only 5 FESCo members, so we might be better off canceling today's meeting. thoughts? | |
| caillon | possibly | |
| tibbs | I thought many folks indicated they'd be back by now. | |
| nirik | suppose... wonder if there is a bunch of people late getting back from lunch or something. | |
| caillon | i know that a few of them are around, just not here. lunch is the likely culprit. or they just forgot. | |
| bpepple | nirik: possibly. let's give them another 5 minutes to see who wanders in, otherwise we should probably cancel. | |
| nirik | sounds good. | |
| caillon | let's vote on the appropriate penalties for being late | |
| ;-) | ||
| loupgaroublond | hang them from the ceiling by their toes, and then tickle the bottoms of their feet | |
| bpepple | caillon: later-comers have to work on a merge review. ;) | |
| caillon | bpepple, +1 | |
| tibbs | Any review at all would make me happy. | |
| bpepple | speaking of meetings, what should we do about next week's since I assume a good portion of FESCo will be traveling to FUDCon. | |
| tibbs | Yeah, I'll be on a plane at that point in time. | |
| caillon | I won't be attending FUDCon | |
| * dwmw2 won't, now | ||
| bpepple | caillon: me neither. :( | |
| dwmw2 | was planning to, but now I have to go to Mongolia on the 13th | |
| * nirik won't yet be on a plane at meeting time, but will after that. | ||
| caillon | the timing of fudcon just blows. if it were a week later or a week earlier, i'd be able to. | |
| and now that we swapped days so that hackfest is friday, i probably won't even be able to vidcon in :( | ||
| bpepple | caillon: that sucks. you'll be able to attend the one that coincides with RH Summit though won't you? | |
| caillon | bpepple, yes | |
| bpepple | Hopefully, I'll be able to make that one also. | |
| * spot wanders in | ||
| caillon | spot, you get to merge review firefox. congrats :-) | |
| bpepple | caillon: ;) | |
| spot | caillon: i already did perl, don't be cruel. | |
| * nirik wonders when the fudcon at rh-summit is... fall? | ||
| caillon | nirik, http://www.redhat.com/promo/summit/ | |
| bpepple | nirik: I believe in may/june time frame. | |
| caillon | same dates | |
| bpepple | ok, it's been 15 minutes, and we're still at less than a 50% majority, so I think we might as well cancel this week's meeting. any objections? | |
| nirik | ah. Thats in faire time, but I might be able to make it. | |
| * jwb is here now | ||
| caillon | spot, I'm not being *too* cruel... i self reviewed a lot of it, and try to keep it nice. | |
| dwmw2 | there's nothing we really have to deal with this week, is there? | |
| spot | nothing that can't wait until next week, surely. | |
| bpepple | dwmw2: not really. f13 had 2 proposals but I'm sure we can push them back. | |
| nirik | caillon: btw, firefox3 is quite nice... lots of good stuff. | |
| caillon | so let's cancel then | |
| bpepple | ok, I don't hear any objections, so let's go ahead and cancel this week's meeting then. | |
| caillon | nirik, :D | |
| jwb | you mean i drove all the way home for nothing? | |
| * nirik is fine with canceling. | ||
| jwb | oh well | |
| * jwb goes to get beer | ||
| * bpepple will end the meeting in 15 | ||
| f13 | sorry, I'm here | |
| spot | too late. | |
| f13 | I was caught up in a different meeting. | |
| * spot runs away | ||
| * bpepple wonders who is still around. | ||
| jwb | i am | |
| tibbs | I'm still paying attention. | |
| At least a little. | ||
| nirik | do we now have enough people to do a meeting? | |
| bpepple | nirik: depends who is still around. | |
| f13 | meh | |
| I'd just be interested in your opinions of the proposals I have | ||
| I was planning on doing a FUDCon barcamp session on maintainer karma | ||
| bpepple | f13: I liked the proposals. | |
| jwb | which two again? | |
| f13 | trying to figure out what all we could use karma for and how wec oudl use it to simplfy some things like sponsor level status, or new maintainer containment. | |
| bpepple | jwb: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating/NewMaintainerContainment | |
| http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/JesseKeating/PackageACLOpening | ||
| jwb | i liked the ACL one | |
| haven't read the maintainer one yet | ||
| tibbs | I think the NewMaintainerContainment stuff is pretty much necessary at this point because the sponsorship thing is starting to break down. | |
| f13 | yeah | |
| bpepple | tibbs: +1 | |
| f13 | that was my thought | |
| jwb | reading it briefly, i like it | |
| tibbs | There are so many packages from new packagers and I simply don't have the time to be responsible for them. | |
| caillon | oh, we've started again? | |
| jwb | not exactly | |
| bpepple | caillon: we're just discussing f13's proposal. I don't think there is enough of us to vote on it. | |
| nirik | yeah, I like it too... does everyone with current cvsextras get elevated? or they would have to be in the contained group first? | |
| caillon | i commented on the lists a while back, though not sure if it got read :-) | |
| f13 | nirik: I think we could grandfather current members of cvsextras to the elevated group | |
| since they're essentially elevated as it is. | ||
| caillon | tibbs, what's happening with sponsorship? | |
| tibbs | Pretty much nothing. | |
| bpepple | f13: that sounds reasonable. | |
| tibbs | We've had no new sponsors in I don't know how long. | |
| f13 | yeah | |
| I"d really like to use karma to autopromote folks to sponsoship status | ||
| sponsorship | ||
| caillon | tibbs, how does one become a sponsor? | |
| jwb | i don't think that will solve the problem | |
| bpepple | tibbs: part of it could be that could be we don't promote it that much. | |
| tibbs | FESCo votes on members. | |
| jwb | you have to have people actually interested in being a sponsor | |
| nirik | we also haven't had many new reviewers... it's mostly the same people doing all the reviews. | |
| bpepple | caillon: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/Schedule/NewSponsors | |
| tibbs | And when I look at something to review and balance against the handholding required for NEEDSPONSOR tickets, I generally pick something else. | |
| Mamoru has been doing a lot of sponsoring lately, though. | ||
| f13 | jwb: part of the problem is that it's nonobvious how to become one, or what it takes. | |
| jwb | f13, yeah | |
| tibbs | He makes them review other packages and such, which is pretty good but I just haven't had the time. | |
| f13 | A more clearly structured path and what each level means/does and how to get there would help. | |
| nirik | yeah, mamoru has been doing great. | |
| bpepple | nirik: agreed. | |
| jwb | f13, like warren's tiered maintainer proposal? | |
| from like 8 months ago? | ||
| f13 | jwb: but much more simple. | |
| caillon | actually, why do we need sponsors again? | |
| f13 | his was good in principle, but a bit unwieldy | |
| caillon | does it really matter if two newbies help each other? | |
| bpepple | caillon: to sponsor new packagers. | |
| f13 | caillon: we'd rather somebody knowledgable helped instead, so that you don't get the blind leading the blind | |
| caillon | bpepple, right... but why can't any packager do that? | |
| tibbs | Somebody has to grant access to CVS. | |
| f13 | also, we should target SIG leaders to become sponsors | |
| particularly for the folks interested in packaging in the sig | ||
| jwb | target them as reviewers first then | |
| f13 | that too | |
| jwb | more reviewers, more sponsors | |
| that's about how it is going to go | ||
| nirik | 39 bugs on the needsponsor list now... thats lower than it has been. | |
| tibbs | Wow, I thought it was higher. | |
| caillon | ok fair enough. why don't we just target people? find a list of people "hey you've been around a long time and seem to know what you're doing. we'd like to see if you are interested in sponsoring new contributors" | |
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Free discussion around Fedora | ||
| tibbs | That's what we've been doing, theoretically. | |
| caillon | ah | |
| okay then | ||
| tibbs | But it just hasn't been happening lately. | |
| f13 | but not structured | |
| * caillon hasn't gotten his notice yet ;) | ||
| f13 | I don't think anybody has stepped up to be a sponsor herder | |
| and really, we may need one | ||
| jwb | caillon, aren't you already a sponsor? | |
| caillon | jwb, um, if I am, nobody told me :) | |
| tibbs | One thing that happened was that the top reviewers all became sponsors, so c4chris's report became a bit less useful for determining who should be propmted to sponsor. | |
| nirik | caillon isn't listed as a sponsor. | |
| jwb | weird... i thought we did that ages ago | |
| f13 | caillon: would you like to /be/ a sponsor? | |
| that's the other side of the coin, sometimes you have to squeek | ||
| tibbs | We have always accepted self-nominations. | |
| I believe that's how most of the sponsors got that way. | ||
| jwb | alternatively, we should ask the people with a count of 0 to step away | |
| bpepple | tibbs: I think that is the preferred method, since otherwise your dependent on someone noticing your work. | |
| caillon | f13, sure. i guess i didn't realize that in order to help new packagers, you had to have some official blessing. i've sorta been doing that. | |
| f13 | to help, you don't. To sponsor and approve their first review, you do | |
| nirik | there are several people still on the top list of reviewers that aren't sponsors: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/PackageStatus#head-65d92874b76cb046b80d9fbfbdef0f941ad4f736 | |
| perhaps we should invite them to be sponsors? | ||
| caillon | f13, then sure | |
| tibbs | Yeah, wolfy would be a good choice, I think. | |
| caillon | nirik, and yes | |
| nirik | yeah, wolfy+1 here | |
| bpepple | nirik: that sounds like a good idea. do you want to contact them, or you want me to? | |
| tibbs | Might as well nominate nobody@fp.o as well. | |
| * nirik notes he's dropped to 4th place... so hard to get in the top 3 anymore. ;) | ||
| nirik | bpepple: if you could that would be great. ;) If you don't want to, I can I suppose. | |
| tibbs | Yeah, I need a meth habit to keep ahead of Parag. | |
| bpepple | nirik: np. I'll go ahead and send out some e-mails later today. | |
| nirik | yeah, that nobody is such a great reviewer... doesn't post many comments tho. | |
| * bpepple is shocked to see that he is still in the top 40 reviews. | ||
| bpepple | anything else folks want to discuss? | |
| caillon | that's an interesting page | |
| Packages listed in comps-f9 but not available | ||
| nirik | meeting next week? meeting at fudcon? | |
| tibbs | Those nobody tickets need to be cleaned up. So far they all seem to be oversights (set the flag but never assigned the ticket.) | |
| * caillon needs to kill firefox-devel from it :-) | ||
| bpepple | nirik: I was thinking of discussing that on the fesco mailing list since a lot of people aren't here today. | |
| tibbs | caillon: There is a race condition there as well but on the whole it's a very useful report. | |
| nirik | bpepple: good idea. | |
| poelcat | bpepple: are there enough members present to review a few features? | |
| f13 | caillon: I'm not exactly happy with that page. | |
| bpepple | poelcat: I don't think so. | |
| f13 | caillon: particularly because it sets an expectation that every package should be in comps, which is wrong | |
| poelcat | bpepple: okay | |
| caillon | f13, nod | |
| tibbs | f13: But is it normal for 50% of the packages to not be in comps? Seems a bit high. | |
| f13 | tibbs: *shrug* lots of libraries | |
| or otherwise just deps of deps of deps | ||
| tibbs | Doesn't really loook like it to me. Lots of leaf packages there. | |
| f13 | sure, I'm not saying there aren't things out there that belong in comps, not at all | |
| I'm just saying I don't like there being an expectation that everything should be there. | ||
| tibbs | So a simple rewording would be sufficient? | |
| caillon | and getting rid of the link to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/PackageStatus/CompsF9Missing | |
| actually, the whole Packages not present in comps-f9 section should go | ||
| and same for f8 and f7 | ||
| tibbs | But someone should peruse that list and make sure that the packages which aren't in comps shouldn't be added to comps. | |
| tibbs | Besides, didn't we (FESCo) ask c4chris to generate that part of the report. | |
| ? | ||
| caillon | maybe old fesco? i don't remember doing so | |
| bpepple | tibbs: possibly. I don't really remember. | |
| caillon | f13, for comps, does it have to be actual package names in the db, or can i list a virtual provides? | |
| f13 | you can list virtual | |
| the entries just get handed off to yum | ||
| caillon | cool. /me sticks in gecko-devel then | |
| tibbs | [Thu Jul 20 2006] [12:49:35] <thl> I'll contact c4chris and ask him to enhance his scripts | |
| [Thu Jul 20 2006] [12:49:45] <thl> so they check if all packages are listed in comps | ||
| f13 | I thik that's because something else was checking that I thought | |
| bpepple | tibbs: boy, that's from way back. I'm not sure if I was even in FESCo at that point. ;) | |
| tibbs | Yeah, this was in the old days. | |
| But we were going through a process of making sure that everything was in comps, and that's when the disputed section was added to the report. | ||
| * nirik has one item also to bring up if people are still around. | ||
| f13 | I'm listening | |
| nirik | http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2007-December/msg01668.html | |
| nirik | should we allow a package that ships sources for a kmod? | |
| tibbs | Heh. | |
| f13 | I think it'd be better if that package was in $OTHER_REPO | |
| as an actual kmod | ||
| tibbs | "Anything they want as documentation" has been the rule as of late. | |
| nirik | http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-commits/2007-December/msg06341.html | |
| f13 | I think the only thing we talked about having as source was the dell kmdl payloads | |
| and even that wasn't fully fleshed out | ||
| caillon | sigh | |
| i really wish people wouldn't commit to build scratch rpms | ||
| nirik | yeah, it seems like bypassing the no-kmods rule... or the spirit of it at least. | |
| bpepple | that should really be moved to another repo. | |
| caillon | agreed | |
| nirik | well, what do we want to do about it? ask them to move it? remove the package? | |
| tibbs | FESCo should have been prepared for this kind of thing when it decided to kick out kernel modules. | |
| f13 | we are sortof. | |
| f13 | we just say that falls under the no kmod policy. | |
| we flat out block the package from being built, which I think it is already blocked. | ||
| in fact, I know because I blocked it. | ||
| oh he's trying to do a subpackage. sneaky | ||
| tibbs | Surely we wouldn't block a package that happens to have kernel module source included as documentation. | |
| Surely we wouldn't bloock a package that includes another piece of documentation with instructions on building it if the user wants to. | ||
| But if the utility of the package actually depends on the user doing that, then.... | ||
| nirik | we don't want to get into some kind of escalating war here... I think first we should just talk to them and ask them to move it to livna/rpmfusion? | |
| bpepple | nirik: agreed. | |
| f13 | yep | |
| bpepple | nirik: do you want to contact them? | |
| nirik | sure, I can. | |
| bpepple | nirik: great. thanks. | |
| ok, anything else? | ||
| -- MARK -- | ||
| caillon | did we decide meeting/no meeting next week? | |
| f13 | I hadn't heard a decision. I won't make it | |
| bpepple | caillon: I was going to bring it up on the fesco mailing list, since a lot of people aren't here. | |
| caillon | ok | |
| bpepple | I send it out later today. | |
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