| bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Meeting rules at http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines -- Init process | ||
| bpepple | FESCo meeting ping -- bpepple, caillon, c4chris, dgilmore, dwmw2, f13, jeremy, jwb, notting, spot, nirik, tibbs, warren | |
|---|---|---|
| Hi everybody; who's around? | ||
| * notting is here | ||
| nirik is here. | ||
| tibbs here | ||
| jwb | i'm here | |
| * c4chris is here | ||
| bpepple | I was traveling yesterday, so I wasn't able to send out an agenda announcement, so subsequently we really don't have anything on the schedule for today. | |
| tibbs | Note that I'm at home and my connexion here sucks, so I may be dropping in and out. | |
| bpepple | tibbs: np. | |
| bpepple | Does anyone have anything they wish to discuss for this week? | |
| notting | anything from fpc? | |
| * bpepple does remember mschwendt having a question about orphaned packages. | ||
| tibbs | Note also that there's nothing up from the FPC this week, although our meeting is moving one hour earlier (and still every other week). | |
| nirik | yeah, when should orphaned packages be removed from the repos... | |
| I think we have had that discussion before, but never reached any final conclusion. | ||
| tibbs | I don't think we can remove anything within a release. | |
| If a security issue crops up, we'll still need to be able to push updates. | ||
| nirik | then what happens when it has broken deps/security/unanswered bug reports? | |
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: - Misc - Ophaned Packages | ||
| tibbs | Someone has to take care of them. | |
| notting | they get assigned to the local package social worker? | |
| bpepple | notting: ;) | |
| c4chris | :) good one | |
| tibbs | The security team exists to deal with security issues. | |
| nirik | it would be nice if there was a way in the update data to push out "hey, this package is orphaned now, remove it? (y/n)" or something. | |
| but that gets complicated. | ||
| bpepple | tibbs: are they willing to take that on for orphaned packages? | |
| tibbs | I'm not really concerned with other issues, although if someone wants them fixed badly enough they could consider stepping up and maintaining. | |
| It was one of the reasons the security SIG was started; to take care of things if the maintainers couldn't. | ||
| bpepple | tibbs: ok, we should add that info to the orphaned packages wiki page. | |
| nirik | humm, but if we remove the package from the repo, at least no new people would install it... | |
| tibbs | This is the kind of thing that the distro just has to take care of. | |
| * nirik agrees with tibbs on security, but there are other issues with orphaned packages that make the distro look bad too. | ||
| notting | it's really hard to remove things that are shipped in the release in the release + updates model | |
| tibbs | We can't remove packages from media that's already been burned. | |
| nirik | true. ;( | |
| tibbs | Yes, we really shouldn't deny someone an update to an orphaned package. | |
| bpepple | notting: agreed. I don't think we can be removing packages from stable releases. | |
| tibbs | Really, it's only for a maximum of six months. | |
| They should go from rawhide as soon as they're orphaned, though. | ||
| bpepple | tibbs: +1 | |
| c4chris | yes | |
| nirik | agreed. | |
| tibbs | We could release twice as often, and then we'd only have to worry about orphaned packages for three months maximum. | |
| c4chris | yikes | |
| nirik | ha. | |
| tibbs | Please only throw 24" or larger monitors at me. Thanks. | |
| c4chris | CRTs? | |
| nirik | so, when a package is orphaned, remove from devel, leave in all release beanches, security sig handles security issues with them in releases, other breakage is just ok? | |
| tibbs | The thing about "other breakage" is that if it bothers someone enough, they could perhaps offer to maintain the package. | |
| c4chris | nirik: yea | |
| tibbs: agreed | ||
| nirik | yeah, but it looks bad in any case to end users... broken deps in release, or package doesn't function. | |
| * dgilmore is here | ||
| tibbs | It would still be really nice if we could get "orphaned" pushed to the package metadata somehow. | |
| f13 | here now. | |
| nirik | or bug reports are ignored (not that thats too different from some other real packages) | |
| f13 | spot is on the way. | |
| tibbs | But we don't want to push an update just to get that. | |
| * spot is here now | ||
| nirik | yeah, and we don't want to nuke a existing package on someones machine just because it's orphaned. | |
| bpepple | how are we marking the devel branch of orphaned packages? are we still using the dead.package file? | |
| tibbs | Anyone know if that's remotely possible? | |
| nirik | bpepple: yes. | |
| nirik | http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/PackageEndOfLife | |
| bpepple | nirik: thanks. | |
| notting | tibbs: possible with bodhi enhancements, i suppose | |
| nirik | BTW, possible to not branch any package with 'dead.package' in it for F-8? or does the mass branch take that into account already? | |
| tibbs | I guess it's possible for that kind of data to come from someplace other than the package itself. | |
| f13 | nirik: I'll talk about that later, but it should be mostly taken into account | |
| notting | nirik: depends how we do the branch, i suppose | |
| f13 | nirik: (so long as it was actually blocked from koji) | |
| nirik | https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/users/packages/orphan also has orphans | |
| bpepple | ok, anything else about orphaned packages, or should we move on? | |
| nirik | but it's not entirely accurate yet | |
| tibbs | What's our deadline for making sure nothing orphaned gets into F8? | |
| nirik | So did we reach any decision that should be added to the wiki/communicated? | |
| f13 | tibbs: before the end of next week would be good | |
| bpepple | nirik: I was going to add a bit to the orphaned page about the security team handling updates. | |
| f13 | tibbs: if somebody volunteers to query what koji thinks is in F8 vs what is orphaned but didn't follow process and is still in F8 that would be good. | |
| tibbs: but it's really really late to be removing a big pile of packages | ||
| nirik | bpepple: 'security updates' right? | |
| bpepple | nirik: correct. | |
| f13 | tibbs: since there is the difference between orphaned and end of lifed. | |
| or maybe there isn't. hrm. | ||
| tibbs | The problem is that if an orphaned package gets into F8, someone gets to maintain it (albeit minimally). We just don't any other choice. | |
| f13 | right, and if we remove a pile of them and find broken deps... | |
| ideally orphaned packages would be removed prior to the FEature freeze, and if you didn't orphan it before the, you're stuck with it for that release. | ||
| However I never communicated this and nobody agreed upon this yet so we can't enforce it. | ||
| tibbs | Plus we can't force people to maintain something they don't want to maintain. | |
| bpepple | how about we do that for F9 then? | |
| nirik | can we agree to that for next cycle at least now? | |
| f13 | tibbs: no, but feature freeze would be the timeline where we'd do removals of orphans. Anything orphaned after that would just have to be picked up by somebody (with reasonable exceptions) | |
| nirik | I see 207 packages with dead.package in devel | |
| tibbs | Wow. | |
| f13 | nirik: in devel as in in rawhide or...? | |
| nirik | in the cvs snapshot checkout from yesterday. | |
| tibbs | But hopefully some of those have been dead for ages. | |
| f13 | Proposal: Remove orphaned packages up to Feature Freeze, after feature freeze orphans will not be removed and must be picked up by somebody (with reasonable exceptions) | |
| nirik: that's just packages that have been orphaned or obsoleted or whatever. We're interested in the dead packages that are still living in rawhide (: | ||
| nirik | must be picked up? meaning someone has to sign up to maintain them? | |
| bpepple | +1, with the caveat that if no one steps up the security team is responsible for any security updates. | |
| tibbs | I think we can make "reasonable exceptions" for leaf packages, can't we? | |
| nirik | right. So the interesting stat will be how many of those are still in repos/not blocked in koji | |
| f13 | tibbs: probably yes. THat would fall under reasonable exception. | |
| nirik | so how do you force people to sign up for them? | |
| f13 | nirik: querying the contents of 'f8-final' would be the best target for that. | |
| warren | f13, +1 | |
| f13 | nirik: when all else fails, the security team and/or releng pick them up. | |
| nirik | http://www.scrye.com/~kevin/fedora/orphans.txt | |
| tibbs | +1 | |
| c4chris | this dates a bit, but there were only 4 orphans in rawhide at that point: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/PackageStatus#head-caeb47ba8d83a49681f8c3d55981b12c7b0671ca | |
| f13 | nirik: we just make it known that at a project level we'd really rather not see packages "go away" at that point so we urge somebody to pick it up at least for the next release. | |
| nirik | does that mean they formally add in pkgdb as maintainer? or ? | |
| f13 | nirik: that's probably the best for now. | |
| tibbs | But the fun question becomes: what do we do with any broken deps caused by orphaned package removal? Drop those packages as well? | |
| f13 | nirik: we can look at some way of marking packages as deprecated to alert users later. | |
| tibbs: deal with it on a case by case basis? | ||
| tibbs | I guess so. | |
| bpepple | tibbs: It would be handed as it is now. most of the time the people affected step up. | |
| tibbs | "glibc orphaned: distro dumped." | |
| * spot notes that for F9, jpo's packages are effectively orphaned | ||
| nirik | so for now, we send out a plea? and anything left gets maintained by releng/security for f8 cycle? ok. | |
| warren | spot, jpo quit? | |
| spot | warren: no commits since July. | |
| warren | sigh | |
| tibbs | "quit" implies some affirmative action. | |
| dgilmore | spot: how come? | |
| warren | dgilmore, he was very much upset about the perl split. | |
| dgilmore | :( | |
| tibbs | Ooh, the perl split was just so difficult to deal with. Not. | |
| bpepple | ok, I see four '+1' for f13's proposal. | |
| spot | i fixed most of his packages, but not all of them. | |
| nirik | +1 as well here. | |
| spot | +1 | |
| c4chris | +1 for f13's proposal here | |
| bpepple | ok, that's seven. we' | |
| tibbs | I keep saying that in the end we're better off without maintainers who say things like "I'll quit if the committee makes a decision I don't like". | |
| bpepple | tibbs: agreed. | |
| c4chris | sure | |
| notting | what about the ones who continually say that and don't? :) | |
| tibbs | Although it sure sucks in the short term. | |
| c4chris | lol | |
| tibbs | spot: If you need help fixing up the rest of those packages, just ask. I'm off of work today. | |
| bpepple | ok, anything else people want to discuss regarding orphaned packages? | |
| notting | oih, and +1 | |
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Free discussion around Fedora | ||
| c4chris | oih is another tla I don't know about ? | |
| notting | no, i just can't type. s/i// | |
| tibbs | If by "tla" you mean "typo"... | |
| c4chris | three letter acronym | |
| bpepple | ah. | |
| c4chris | :) | |
| f13 | FYI I posted my developement changes proposal | |
| tibbs | More for the FPC, but we really need Java guidelines. | |
| nirik | ok, so of the 207 packages with a dead.package in devel, only 4 are in the f8-final koji tag | |
| f13 | I'm gathering feedback, and want to see maybe a Nov 1st meeting to hash it out and vote on it | |
| spot | tibbs: s/Java/someone to write Java/ | |
| bpepple | f13: that sounds good. | |
| tibbs | spot: Indeed. | |
| f13 | also I'm hoping to mass branch CVS this evening | |
| (if I ever get any #(*#$$& time) | ||
| bpepple | f13: sweet. I was about to make a bunch of requests for cvs branching. | |
| c4chris | nirik: the same as on the wiki PackageStatus page ? | |
| nirik | http://www.scrye.com/~kevin/fedora/f8-orphans | |
| dgilmore | f13: that lokoed pretty sane | |
| abadger1999 | f13: Keep me in the loop re: branching. | |
| f13 | bpepple: I'll announce well ahead of time so that we can have a CVS outage and not do any branch requests in the middle of it. | |
| abadger1999 | f13: I'll need to manually update a few things to the "packager" group afterwards. | |
| f13 | abadger1999: yeah, I want to use pkgdbclient and pkgdb2branch to do this. | |
| bpepple | f13: cool. | |
| tibbs | Didn't pdftk have licensing issues? | |
| abadger1999 | f13: As long as it's fast enough they should work. | |
| bpepple | anything else people want to discuss? | |
| nirik | tibbs: not sure... might have | |
| tibbs | nirik: http://www.mail-archive.com/itext-questions@lists.sourceforge.net/msg32960.html | |
| f13 | bpepple: I can't think of anything off the top of my head. Full steam ahead to F8! | |
| nirik | oh yeah. | |
| so we should nuke that one. | ||
| and then the other 3 are up for grabs. | ||
| bpepple | ok, unless there's anything else, we can probably wrap up for this week. | |
| * bpepple will end the meeting in 60 | ||
| nirik | oh, any news on fudcon? | |
| * bpepple isn't aware of any. | ||
| f13 | nirik: I haven't heard anything,which likely means it won't happen in Dec. | |
| nirik | ok, just wondering. | |
| * bpepple will end the meeting in 30 | ||
| bpepple will end the meeting in 15 | ||
| bpepple | -- MARK -- Meeting End | |
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