| bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Meeting rules at http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/Extras/Schedule/MeetingGuidelines -- Init process | ||
| f13 | here | |
|---|---|---|
| * abadger1999 waves from the bleachers | ||
| * warren here | ||
| notting is here | ||
| nirik is here. | ||
| c4chris is here | ||
| bpepple | FESCo meeting ping -- bpepple, caillon, c4chris, dgilmore, dwmw2, f13, jeremy, jwb, notting, spot, nirik, tibbs, warren | |
| * jeremy is here | ||
| tibbs here, barely. | ||
| bpepple | Hi, everyone. | |
| * spot is here | ||
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- MISC -- revisiting status of features which we gave a pass to go in post-feature freeze - jeremy | ||
| f13 | I'm here. | |
| warren | Did everyone vote on the proposal? | |
| oh, wrong topic | ||
| bpepple | warren: we can switch if you'd like. | |
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: -- MISC -- release team proposal | ||
| f13 | this was the proposal sent to the list. | |
| bpepple | did every one get a chance to read the proposal? And if so, is anyone against it? | |
| * c4chris wonder about point 3 ... | ||
| warren | It is very short, read it if you haven't yet. | |
| tibbs | Sorry, I'm very behind on mail at this point. Anyone have a link? | |
| f13 | you can also see it in wiki form at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ReleaseEngineering/Meetings/2007-sep-17#head-7280e101faed94c9aa87f590f920a38c2a9a66a8 | |
| nirik | as long as dist tags will do the right thing I think it's fine. | |
| warren | tibbs, it is on fesco list, no links are possible | |
| tibbs | Oh, that one. I think I did see that. | |
| bpepple | +1, I'm fine with the proposal. | |
| f13 | ugh, I can't get into the archives becuase I didn't actaully sign up for the list myself so I don't know what the password is. | |
| spot | i voted for it at the rel-eng meeting, so i'm an obvious +1 | |
| notting | +1 | |
| f13 | bp, jkatz, kevin all voted +1 | |
| warren | I'm changing the part about the Orbital Laser to something more formal. | |
| f13 | k | |
| warren | Then posting it to fedora-devel-announce | |
| c4chris | +1 (but I think point 3 is more trouble than it is worth...) | |
| bpepple | https://www.redhat.com/mailman/private/fedora-extras-steering/2007-September/msg00021.html | |
| tibbs | It seems fine to me, but I think we can expect folks to get confused about process. | |
| warren | tibbs, which part of the process? | |
| jeremy | tibbs: I don't know how we avoid people getting confused about process unless we just don't do freezes | |
| which is a little impractical :) | ||
| tibbs | I certainly needed something like this during the F7 freeze. | |
| f13 | tibbs: as confused as the 'mail releng to get your build in' process, or the huge question of 'is my build in or not' or 'i built for rawhide, why isn't it in rawhide' confusion? | |
| bpepple | Is anyone against the proposal? | |
| if not, I think we can consider the proposal approved. | ||
| f13 | hurray. | |
| warren | OK, I'll send it off. | |
| bpepple | warren: great, thanks. | |
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCO-Meeting -- MISC -- revisiting status of features which we gave a pass to go in post-feature freeze - jeremy | ||
| warren | "We will loudly advertise expectations of acceptable changes during the freeze period." | |
| jeremy | so, we gave some features a bit of a pass on the feature freeze and I think it's worth going through the list again (... as painful as it is) to get a current idea of where they are | |
| bpepple | jeremy: I assume xulrunner is one of the features you want us to revisit? | |
| jeremy | xulrunner is one. NetworkManager was built at some point in the past 24 hours, so it might be in shape | |
| jeremy | although there's some large gaps right now from some quick testing before lunch | |
| notting | NM at the moment is having issues with dbus system activation and selinux | |
| warren | notting, still? | |
| notting | still? you mean it's changed in the past two hours? | |
| jeremy | notting: + no vpn, not sure what's up with kde applet (haven't even looked to see yet), | |
| let's just do a quick touch on each of the major outstanding ones? | ||
| c4chris | sure | |
| jeremy | first up -- generic logos. notting has made a lot of progress on this one | |
| nirik | so, we are just seeing how bad it is? or are we talking about pulling them as features? | |
| jeremy | nirik: revisiting if they need to be pulled mostly | |
| notting | generic-logos is waiting on review, and some cleanup of gdm theme packaging | |
| jeremy | so I think generic logos is in reasonable shape unless notting says otherwise | |
| nirik | notting: I can review it in the next few days if no one beats me to it. | |
| bpepple | I might have some time tomorrow to look at it, also. | |
| * dwmw2 appears. sorry, on phone | ||
| jeremy | texlive -- it looks like the review is still somewhat stuck from quickly looking through the bug (242416) | |
| notting | is it still stuck on legal? | |
| jeremy | not blocking FE-LEGAL | |
| tibbs | I thought the legal bits had mostly been cleaned up. | |
| jeremy | and comments imply some legal fixes ~ 2 weeks ago | |
| nirik | yeah, it looks to just be lacking a reviewer. | |
| jeremy | I don't really see how this still makes F8, but that's just me | |
| f13 | seems rather late to me. | |
| also, do we want to somewhat forbid this landing as a update to F8 like a week after we release? | ||
| bpepple | f13: probably. | |
| c4chris | I'd feel more comfortable making this an F9 feature | |
| bpepple | what do other FESCo members think. Should we pull this for F8? | |
| abadger1999 | Does the current tex package have the legal issues that texlive has cleaned up? | |
| f13 | -1 for F8 | |
| abadger1999: that's a really good question :/ | ||
| tibbs | Almost certainly. | |
| abadger1999 | If so I'm for finding some way to get texlive in, painful as it is. | |
| tibbs | I think texlive is very important for F8, but I just don't know if it's practical. | |
| jeremy | abadger1999: at the risk of slipping the release? | |
| warren | What exactly is the risk of letting it in now? | |
| jeremy | we have another release in six months. if a feature doesn't make it for one release, there's always next time | |
| this is the entire reason for doing time-based releases | ||
| rdieter | standard problem: texlive has *lots* of commenters, 0 reviewers. ): | |
| abadger1999 | Hmm... review implies that the legally questionable stuff was just removed; no substitutions were necessary. | |
| Maybe we could do the same to the current tex package... | ||
| * nirik sees that the "Contingency Plan" on the texlive feature is "" | ||
| spot | to be fair, i haven't seen the texlive-package get respun off new upstream sources yet | |
| rdieter | if I get done with kde4-related gunk today, I'll try step in and help out review-wise. | |
| abadger1999 | s/says/implies/ | |
| jeremy | abadger1999: could be investigated. but I think that trying to hold up F8 to get texlive shoved in is the wrong answer | |
| nirik | test3 freeze is tuesday? | |
| jeremy | nirik: yep | |
| abadger1999 | jeremy: Yeah. I'm just thinking, if current tex is also "non-free", should we really not be shipping it? | |
| In which case we're lacking in a tex package at all. | ||
| bpepple | -1, I think it's pretty late in the game to try to get this in for F8. | |
| nirik | well, I suppose it could get reviewed this weekend... but man, sometime things must be cut off. | |
| notting | -1 from me | |
| dwmw2 | -1. It just isn't that urgent that we need to change it for F8. | |
| jeremy | nirik: and what about making sure that it doesn't build anything else in the 4000 source packages we have that end up using tex in their build? | |
| dwmw2 | where's the massive user-driven imperative? | |
| abadger1999 | But if we can see that stripping the problematic stuff is doable, it seems to be safer. | |
| nirik | ugh, yeah... ok, pull it. | |
| abadger1999: what is problematic again about the current package? | ||
| * jeremy is +1 to pushing to an F9 feature, if it's not clear :) | ||
| f13 | (: | |
| dwmw2 | jeremy: +1 to that. | |
| c4chris | F8: -1; F9: +1 | |
| rdieter | nirik: upstream gone. no maintainance. | |
| bpepple | ok, doing a quick count I see seven votes to pushing this back to F9. | |
| nirik | yeah, F8: -1, F9: +1 here | |
| dwmw2 | I've been poking at the Bluetooth bits. We have an selinux policy fix and I'm working on one or two fixed on the bluez-* side, and it looks good. | |
| jeremy | poelstra is out (new baby), so I'll do the feature page twiddling | |
| bpepple | jeremy: cool. | |
| dwmw2 | so I'm happy with the status of that feature. | |
| f13 | oh that's where he is (: | |
| I probably saw that I just forgot. | ||
| abadger1999 | nirik: Looking for the post about it. | |
| nirik | https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2006-November/msg00195.html | |
| jeremy | next up -- new NetworkManager | |
| dwmw2 | the one issue with claiming improved Bluetooth⢠support is the people might ask where our certification is :) | |
| f13 | dwmw2: so just call it "bluetooth" and not captalize it (: | |
| or "support for bluetooth devices" | ||
| dwmw2 | :) | |
| jeremy | so new NetworkManager was built early this morning and will be in rawhide when it meanders its way out | |
| notting | i got your certification right here. from arkham asylum. | |
| f13 | it has some... issues | |
| jeremy | there's definitely some work to be done there, but the issues are supposed to be resolvable in relatively short order | |
| f13 | but a good chunk of progress has been made | |
| If this were the state of it at test2 time, this would be a slam dunk in. | ||
| jeremy | if we didn't have the live images (where it's on by default), I'd be substantially less worried. but since it is, it could be... tricky | |
| I think dcbw was going to sleep, though, so I haven't had a chance to talk with him about what I saw before lunch | ||
| f13 | as it is, I'm still pretty OK, but reserve the right to disable it by default if things don't look good later on. | |
| nirik | so the feature was for NM on by default and handling all network connections? | |
| bpepple | f13: +1 | |
| jeremy | nirik: I don't think we're doing on by default for everything | |
| f13 | no? | |
| probably way too late for that I suppose | ||
| jeremy | (that was the original idea, but I don't see things being there. for one thing, doing it sanely requires installer changes and there's no way in hell we should do those at this point) | |
| nirik | good. I'm fine with it improving, but I am very very concerend with the lack of testing for all the non wireless/laptop cases. | |
| f13 | wish we could make it more obvious to enable after install. | |
| jeremy: gotcha. | ||
| maybe just maybe we can make it more discoverable post-install? | ||
| nirik | I think pushing on by default for f9 might be ok... but not f8. | |
| jeremy | f13: would be string changes to do so :) | |
| * jeremy is still worried about it given the high profile it has with the live images, but, feels like we're in between a bit of a rock and a hard place | ||
| nirik | well, the only alternative would be to backout to and older version? | |
| bpepple | jeremy: yeah, but I don't think it's something we can pull. | |
| f13 | jeremy: I'm a bit happier knowing that we can somewhat have dcbw to fix bugs between now and release, which is better than before where we might maybe get a partial slice of his time. | |
| warren | Are we talking about NM by default? | |
| jeremy | nirik: yes, with other bugs which have been "will be fixed in 0.7.0" | |
| nirik | yeah, I think we run with it and hope it can get stablized. | |
| jeremy | bpepple: I'm not disagreeing. I just hope we're not shooting ourselves in the foot :-/ | |
| warren | Is NM by default usable AT ALL for servers? (Can you specify static IP's or configure multiple NIC's?) | |
| jeremy | but, not like I haven't had to fix NM for things in the past ;) | |
| bpepple | jeremy: agreed. | |
| jeremy | warren: please scroll back and actually read the discussion. | |
| nirik | -lots for "on by default" at this point from me. | |
| f13 | warren: we've been using NM by default on Live images since pretty much day one | |
| warren: but we're not going to do NM by default for F8. | ||
| warren | OK, just wanted that to be clear. | |
| c4chris | I'm ok with letting this in | |
| f13 | I would feel kind of bad after dcbw pulled an all nighter to land this to say no now. | |
| nirik | ok, so any other features? or votes on this one? | |
| jeremy | f13: need to sit down and really catalog the problems, though. and make sure that we're tracking them | |
| other outstanding feature is xulrunner | ||
| dwmw2 | I'm kind of lost on what the result of a 'no' vote would be. We're already said it won't be _default_, right? If I say -1 does that mean we don't even pull in the new build of the package? | |
| f13 | jeremy: yes, after meeting I'm doing to do a fresh reboot with updates snaked out of koji-static and see where we're at with NM | |
| dwmw2: correct, a -1 would be rollback to old version | ||
| as lame as that is, but it would protect against the REGRESSION monsters. | ||
| dwmw2 | the new NM isn't likely to be _that_ bad, is it? | |
| c4chris | xulrunner looks pretty red in the feature page as it is... | |
| f13 | dwmw2: it's a rewrite | |
| dwmw2 | +1 for it from me, I think. | |
| jeremy | dwmw2: it's basically a rewrite | |
| dwmw2 | NM needed a rewrite :) | |
| f13 | dwmw2: until last night wireless didn't work for encrypted networks | |
| dwmw2 | you just make me happier about it | |
| f13 | dwmw2: it's still missing important UI stuff, like being able to launch a vpnc connection | |
| dwmw2 | hm. | |
| jeremy | so xulrunner was not building on ppc, dwmw2 fixed that and now there's a new build problem with it | |
| f13 | also it dropped the need for dhcdbd which is reason enough for me to let it in. | |
| jeremy: that's fixed by a glibc build. | ||
| dwmw2 | jeremy: you mean the C++ FORTI... that one? | |
| f13 | jeremy: it was a glibc bug being tickled by xul. | |
| jeremy | dwmw2: yeah | |
| dwmw2 | gcc bug, surely? | |
| f13 | dwmw2: glibc | |
| dwmw2 | that one, anyway | |
| f13 | dwmw2: jakub tracked it down yesterday | |
| jeremy | so now that that's fixed, it should be buildable I think. and desktop folks were going to fix things not to clobber firefox and then start rebuilding things | |
| dwmw2 | not http://gcc.gnu.org/PR33506 ? | |
| jeremy | at least, that was the plan during the desktop sig meeting yesterday | |
| nirik | jeremy: can those rebuilds get done before tuesday? I guess again we hope so. | |
| f13 | dwmw2: hrm, odd that he claimed it was glibc then filed a gcc bug. | |
| * bpepple hopes so also, since liferea is one of those effected. | ||
| f13 | 17:54 <@jakub> roland: actually, it is a glibc bug | |
| spot | new gcc hasn't gone into rawhide yet | |
| f13 | guess there was more dialog on that later. | |
| jeremy | nirik: once xulrunner is built, it shouldn't be a big problem to do the rebuilds | |
| dwmw2 | f13: that postdates the mail I'm looking at. Anyway, it's Jakub's Fault⢠| |
| * f13 thinks that the re-opened rawhide after test3 would be helpful for all the xul rebuilds (if we do them) | ||
| jeremy | nirik: as most upstreams have switched to xulrunner a while ago | |
| f13 | dwmw2: hah, yeah, I'm seeing more dialog in the backlog where ti was clarified. | |
| nirik | ok, cool. | |
| notting | jeremy: give them a while, they can switch to webkit | |
| f13 | I hate to think that we're going to have such a switch like that /after/ test3 though :/ | |
| jeremy | notting: heh | |
| f13 | wwoods will have to get his test on. | |
| jeremy | f13: if things aren't done by freeze time next week, then we have a harder conversation. as I don't really want to see it post-test3 either | |
| bpepple | jeremy: +1 | |
| jeremy: any other features we need to discuss? | ||
| jeremy | that's the list of ones that I think were outstanding as of test2 | |
| as far as being "testable". probably need to do a poke of feature owners just to make sure they update with current status for test3 | ||
| f13 | jeremy: so you want a fixed xul to land, and all apps rebuilt, before Tuesday? | |
| jeremy | f13: yes. and a pony. :-) | |
| * f13 thinks somebody is going to have to start yelling /loudly/ at the xul consumers. | ||
| dwmw2 | NO MORE BLOODY PONIES | |
| wwoods | xulrunner testing? yeah, that one's not too bad | |
| spot | dwmw2: if your pony is bloody, you're riding it wrong. | |
| c4chris | but we love ponies | |
| f13 | I'm a little disgruntled with CodecBuddy (aka codeina) | |
| jeremy | f13: it's not that large of a list, really. and "we" can help (collective "we" of rel-eng, cvsadmins, fesco, etc) | |
| f13 | but... | |
| * spot is rebuilding gcc now | ||
| wwoods | it's pretty obvious when apps are using xulrunner, and it's usually fairly obvious where the problem is when xulrunner is being a problem | |
| dwmw2 | spot: ah, maybe so | |
| spot | going to work on firefox as soon as it is done | |
| f13 | spot: beware the wrath of the tools folks. | |
| wwoods | err.. yeah. you know what I mean. if xulrunner acts up it's easier to spot than, say, figuring out what's misbehaving if you can't play music | |
| spot | f13: locally. not through koji. | |
| f13 | spot: I ssee. | |
| dwmw2 | hm, whoever imported the ppc64 patch into xulrunner imported the wrong one. The one I posted to the mailing list was correct, not the one from mozilla bugzilla. | |
| spot | i think caillon did that before he went on vacation | |
| so he probably didn't see the mailing list post | ||
| bpepple | ok, it looks like we've got about 10 minutes left. anything else about Features? Or should we move on? | |
| dwmw2 | no, he merged the even older firefox-1.5 patch :) | |
| jeremy | dwmw2: I'll fix it up so you can commit the right patch ;) | |
| dwmw2 | jeremy: really? That would be spiffing :) | |
| nirik | if codecbuddy isn't matching the listed features, should we ping them to change it, or pull it as a feature? | |
| f13 | honestly it looks like it's only missing oen big thing, that it be driven to a webpage instead of a local popup. | |
| the local popup is right now all hardcoded for fluendo stuff, but since we don't have another vendor that's not too terrible. | ||
| dwmw2 | I disappeared during last week's meeting. Was there anything I was supposed to do following the kernel module thing? | |
| f13 | I'dl ike to see it a bit more Fedora branded and made clear that Fluendo is just an option (the only option right now) but that it isn't just a big commercial for Fluendo | |
| c4chris | f13: agreed | |
| nirik | ok, so file bugs and see if they will just fix things? That sounds like the good next step to me. | |
| f13 | but that can be fixed between now and release. | |
| bpepple | dwmw2: I think the only thing we talked about after you left was the wiki changes that needed to be made. | |
| f13 | nod | |
| * notting has some ideas, but no time | ||
| --- bpepple has changed the topic to: FESCo meeting -- Free discussion around Fedora | ||
| bpepple | ok, we've got about 5 minutes left. anything we need to discuss before wrapping up this week? | |
| wwoods | The fact that Fluendo is the *only* existing legal option needs to be kept in mind during any codeina discussion, I think | |
| jeremy | wwoods: you forgot "in the US" | |
| bpepple | jeremy: ;) | |
| f13 | wwoods: yes, but that /could/ change and we should be sure to have a flexible app to handle that. | |
| jeremy | wwoods: other countries have different legal restrictions | |
| wwoods | we're in the US, though. fluendo is the only thing we can legally point to right now, isn't it? | |
| * rdieter thinks so... | ||
| c4chris | I don't think you'd be forbidden to mention that things can be different in other countries... | |
| jeremy | wwoods: some readings of the magic 8 ball say "ask again later" | |
| wwoods | so the fact that the app only points to fluendo right now is troubling | |
| but there is *no alternative at this time* | ||
| jeremy | but yeah, I'm not that bent out of shape about it at the moment | |
| notting | note that this is also being brought up by the board | |
| wwoods | I'm just trying to make sure that further (unavoidable) discussion of codeina reflects that fact | |
| f13 | I've got nothing further for FESCo at this time. | |
| wwoods | I'll probably be tracking down feature owners about testing info | |
| bpepple | wwoods: cool. | |
| f13 | goot. | |
| wwoods | esp. pulseaudio. that one worries me mightily | |
| abadger1999 | So tetex does have pieceswith no license inside the tarball. | |
| wwoods | it's so cool when it works but so hard to debug when it doesn't. | |
| f13 | speaking of, we have compiz-fusion now, but still no tool to fiddle with it. | |
| dwmw2 | wwoods: feel free to hassle me about bluetooth testing | |
| abadger1999 | there's also at least one thing that has non-commercial use in the file | |
| * dwmw2 tries to find the firefox window in which he was half-way through buying a set of bluetooth headphones | ||
| nirik | f13: are there more buildid rebuilds needed before test3? | |
| wwoods | dwmw2: yeah, do you have some recommended tasks? I've got a headset and a phone but that's it | |
| nirik | also, what about packages without the new license tags? | |
| wwoods | (I really want to do official support for the wiimote but that's outside of this discussion) | |
| dwmw2 | pretty GUI stuff should let you browse the phone's files. | |
| we don't let have PPP support -- that's waiting on NM development. Although it's easy enough to set up | ||
| wwoods | dwmw2: right, but what's the procedure for setting up the machine for testing? Should bluetooth just magically be enabled on a machine with proper hardware? | |
| dwmw2 | I use modemlights_applet for GPRS "dialup" | |
| wwoods | we can discuss outside this meeting | |
| f13 | nirik: yes | |
| wwoods | but yeah | |
| wwoods | those are the sorts of questions | |
| bpepple | ok, unless there is anything else, we can probably wrap up the meeting. | |
| dwmw2 | yes, I think it should. If not, hassle me and/or hadess | |
| f13 | nirik: sending up a new list today | |
| dwmw2 | yeah, let's do it later. SIGWENCH imminent | |
| * bpepple will end the meeting in 60 | ||
| bpepple will end the meeting in 30 | ||
| wwoods | (SIGLUNCH?) | |
| * bpepple will end the meeting in 15 | ||
| dwmw2 | that too. Well, dinner. | |
| bpepple | -- MARK -- Meeting End | |
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